Author Topic: Timing 318 2 barrel  (Read 6730 times)

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Offline ToxicDoc

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Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2020, 09:41:34 pm »
OK. looks like you do have the ported source. It's just a little more vacuum than I'm used to seeing. Often that's if the throttle plates are open a little too much, but if the plates are closed, then just ignore it. Most important is how does the truck runs and if are you getting correct total (mechanical) advance. Vacuum falls under too much load with open throttle, so don't worry about the total amount from vacuum.

My rule of thumb for a heavy vehicle is about 10-12 degrees base time, another 20-22 from mechanical advance, for a total of mid 30's. canister can easily add 15-20 degrees, but they are only used at part throttle or if rpm is in the high range (which by then the engine is in a good power band and can accommodate the advance)
'85 W150 SB, 408 stroker, Magnum manifolds, Performer RPM, 670 Truck Avenger, HEI ignition, Auburn LSD 9.25 and '82 D44 (non-CAD) with 3.55/3.54,  NV4500/NP241

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #51 on: April 26, 2020, 10:22:47 pm »
    Many carbs from the later 70's, have the port right above the throttle plates, to give the vacuum advance as soon as the plates are opening. drop your throttle down to 700 RPM, and see if the vacuum drops. If you still have the diagram under the hood, see if it shows an OSAC valve between the carb, and dist. It was used to delay the advance a bit when the throttle was opened, to give better drive ability. IIRC, the valve was mounted on the rear of the aircleaner.

    NO labels indicating anything.

    I have the idle set to 800 ish. Seemed to run a little low or rough a bit lower than 750ish and I was anticipating of it being in drive along with the a/c so have it a little high. But I can try it lower if you think it's worth it.

    Right now we have 22 btdc at idle with the vacuum advance connected. I did notice that with the vacuum advance connected it seems more speratic. With it unplugged it's dead on at 11* initial and goes right to 35* at 3600 rpm then right back to 11* when you let off. If you reconnect the vacuum it might be 22* or 26* or 25* each time you let off the throttle. The can Seems really sensitive. Maybe this is normal.


    I wonder if someone put an rv cam in this cause it lopes pretty good when you get it down to 750ish or lower idle.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #52 on: April 27, 2020, 12:52:27 am »
    there is / was quite a few different dizzy advance amounts , save the old one ? a working spare .... tag and bag it.
     the amount of diff between the old/new ones is something you will not notice much at all except maybe at the 1/4 mile ... and the gas pumps maybe ...  lope , from your vac gauge I'd say its a pretty stock cam , with power brakes , that is a good thing , one less "problem" What it could be is a little "rich" mix at idle .. in the good ole days we would sniff the exhaust , to see if its running "clean" or not , a sickly sweet eye burning smell , too rich , and if its too rich enough it can cause a lope , like the choke is closed when warm lope .... adjust the idle screws on front there with the dizzy vac attached / working ... normally 1 1/2 turns from gently all the way in is a start point on those carbs ( and may others too ) never close those screws tightly , that breaks stuff ..  a tachometer  can help with the max rpm at idle air bleed adjustment .. or your ears...
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #53 on: April 27, 2020, 08:59:45 am »
    The exhaust had a strong smell and was eye burny before. It smells good now. Runs great, like you said nothing really noticible other than just seems smoother and smells better. Stomped on it and didn't notice any pinging. Didn't really go anywhere but it's a 318 2barrell so can't expect much. But it does get going eventually.

    I am going to try and adjust the idle and the idle screws just a bit more so it's not at 800. It seemed to idle fine in drive  with the a/c so could probably back that off a bit and could probably lean it out a bit more. When I turned the screws in it took about a full turn in before it started to stumble and that was not screwing it in all the way. I backed them out till it smoothed back out and I got my vacuum back but from where they had it seemed pretty far out too me. Isn't it like a quarter or half turn out more once you get the vacuum back?
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #54 on: April 27, 2020, 10:04:24 am »
    eh , they are all a tad different ..working on autos use to be an art , today its all by the numbers , like a painting ?
     Your working on the art , no numbers , one thing about too lean an idle , sometimes that will make it stumble when you stomp it . Carbs use different fuel mix flow paths , as the rpms come up / throttle plates open the mix goes  from 1 path to the next , at the upper limits of the preceding path the mix is lean , its never "perfect" thru its entire rpms .  I'd fiddle a little more , set the idle rpms , call it good and quit . last test , high gear, very low rpms ,( load) step on throttle listen for ping .  but sounds to me you have it ,  :D :D next area of repair ....?
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #55 on: April 27, 2020, 10:24:08 am »
    I will fiddle with Tha carb a bit more and do that test drive.

    The next thing is since we have the reference points for the frame is to try and gets those axles squared up and maybe adjust alignment and toe in a bit. Other then that next would be the interior and he is painting the frame in stages. Plenty still do but all the mechanical is pretty much done. Could change the oil pan gasket that leaks a bit. Also have a freeze plug beind the engine mount that's all deteriated, not leaking but looks like it has in the past. Door panels are going to get resurfaced due to sun rot. Just stuff like that.

    Also have to figure out why the new brakes seem spongey. Probably got an air bubble somewhere still. Wonder if the new calipers with the metal piston act different. We bled them alot and no improvement. They work fine pedal doesn't seem to stop like it did before. Might have gotten air up to the master cylinder. May need to bleed it again on the truck just to see. Maybe cheap brake lines.
    « Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 10:31:10 am by daryl78powerwagon »
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #56 on: April 27, 2020, 10:38:43 am »
     squaring axles is important , them out of line it makes a left at speed way different than it does a right at speed .
     many times the brakes come up that way after renewing stuff , remember the calipers can be swapped side to side , you want the bleeders above the hoses , if you did have the master go dry , yes bleed it , adj rears up and open both front bleeders ,"gravity bleed " for a few minuets ,  keep master full , repeat with the rear  ...
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #57 on: April 27, 2020, 03:43:35 pm »
    Yup they are on the correct side. Just need to make sure the master is bleed just incase it got air in it.
     I doubt it did, we used line lock on the front center when we had it apart and there was no fluid missing out if the master when we bled them. Was a little lower but that was probably from filling the new calipers cause we gravity bled them to start. We shall see. They work good but the pedal just doesnt seem to have that sudden stop feel to where it doesn't go any further at all you know. If you push a little more it seems like theres a bubble in it.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #58 on: April 27, 2020, 04:36:48 pm »
    2 things come to mind , pads/shoes not "seated" yet , air like you said ...
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Offline modelcitizen

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #59 on: April 27, 2020, 04:52:01 pm »
    Pads not bedded in yet

    Online daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #60 on: April 27, 2020, 04:59:19 pm »
    I thought that also that's kinda why I was just gunna see what happens. I did get acdelco rebuilt calipers cause they had the metal piston. But I did have a problem with another set of these type of calipers from ac delco on my other son's 2 door tahoe. I was able to find out that the seal they use causes or is designed to retract the piston more than most to help eliminate drag on the rotors. With this it causes a further pedal than normal since the pistons travel a bit more to start making contact. That's just what was explained to me. I guess it's a square style seal with a bevel and it pulls the piston back more when the brake is let off. Don't know if they use this style seal for these calipers. Anythings possible.

    I should have rebuilt them myself cause I have two sets of calipers that are complete factory oem never been touched. I didn't realize how easy it would have been to rebuild them myself. But oh well. I will bag and tag those also right. Learning not to get rid of stuff from these dodges.
    « Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 05:01:59 pm by daryl78powerwagon »
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline modelcitizen

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #61 on: April 27, 2020, 10:57:54 pm »
    Sounds sort of bs regarding the explanation on caliper seals...

    Online daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #62 on: April 27, 2020, 11:27:56 pm »
    This is the design I guess. I guess they are called a low drag caliper. But I guess it's the groove not thw seal. So I doubt they went to the extant to machine the groove on the caliper when they rebuilt it. But maybe, who knows.

    It allows the seal to kinda push out but as the brake is let off the seal retracts in the groove and pulls the piston farther back. Probably a mpg thing or maybe their rotors warp easily so they did this to keep from dragging.
    « Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 11:30:31 pm by daryl78powerwagon »
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #63 on: April 27, 2020, 11:57:19 pm »
    well if the seal did push back , when the rotor runout pushed the piston the fluid would be under some pressure to return it to the master , and would leak ... the square seal/groove wants to "roll" , go concave as the piston is moved thru it , that wears the seals , they are just trying to reinvent the wheel and b/s sell folks . hydraulic cylinders have many types of proven seals , but they are more costly .... ( a caliper IS a hydraulic cylinder after all , a single acting one )  spongy brakes are not from the seal .....  unless its leaking .... if the pedal is JUST lower MAYBE the caliper does let the pad back more now every time you apply you must first fill the void (distance back)with fluid
     I just replace the calipers every time I do pads now , the stuff is either rusted ( location) or shot anyway ... when disc brakes first came out , I rebuilt alot of them , for gas stations .. a glass bead cabnet .... a/p machine shop .
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Online daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #64 on: May 1, 2020, 03:29:12 pm »
    Well it doesn't seem to ping on a low rpm load. But it does seem to have a kalackalacka lack on the freeway if your cruising and then give it some more gas. Worse if your on a slight incline. Have the idle at about 800. Can't go any lower it wants to die with it in drive and the air on.

    Update. It's making that kalackalacka on regular roads when you are crushing then give it more. I take it that's the noise. So the timing is too high?

    Update#2 son told me they just filled up with circle k gas. It wasn't doing all this before when we were using Costco gas. It literally just started. It could be the circle k gas. Maybe I should go get a can of octane booster and see what it does.
    « Last Edit: May 1, 2020, 04:55:05 pm by daryl78powerwagon »
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline modelcitizen

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #65 on: May 1, 2020, 05:21:34 pm »
    Drive moderately and run out the cheap gas. If it ran well with what was in the tank previously,use that. Don't attempt to tune out engine pinging on cheap gas-unless you intend to run cheap gas all the time. Whatever the wallet says i suppose.

    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #66 on: May 1, 2020, 07:59:34 pm »
    yes, that sounds like pinging. To me it reminds me of a tin can filled with nuts and bolts that is being shaken gently. You can back down on the timing for now until you get better gas. My truck's compression ratio is high and I had to both back down on the timing and use 93 octane.
    '85 W150 SB, 408 stroker, Magnum manifolds, Performer RPM, 670 Truck Avenger, HEI ignition, Auburn LSD 9.25 and '82 D44 (non-CAD) with 3.55/3.54,  NV4500/NP241

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #67 on: May 1, 2020, 08:11:11 pm »
    I will give that a shot. Gunna check the timing and make sure distributor didn't move. Then maybe throw some octane booster in it and retard the timing a bit till its gobe like you guys said. Unless the dizzy moved I can't imagine that it would be anything else other than the gas. I literally was running great for a few trips then he filled it up with circle k gas and we went for a ride to check it out on the freeway. It was 4 miles in and is just started, then it got worse and worse. We took the back roads home and kept it below the knocking stage. Really just started running like crap especially the idle after that gas.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #68 on: May 2, 2020, 09:07:03 am »
    So another part of symptoms. After the freeway on regular roads the I tial acceleration seemed OK but when we were at a cruising speed and gave it the slightest bit of gas it knocked. Just asking to see if those conditions would likely be gas and or timing?
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #69 on: May 2, 2020, 11:30:55 am »
    Took a 1and 2 plugs out see pics below. Checked the timing. It didn't move at all its still at 11 initial and 35 at 3600rpm. Have the idle at 700 without the vacuum advance. Passenger side exhaust smells like crap again and seems as though it misfiring. Should the idle be set with the vacuum advance on? Adjusted the idle screws a bit seems better but just doesn't seem right on the passenger side.

    Couldn't have just been from it getting sooo hot yesterday on the freeway? The temp was only at 200 to 205 went to 210 when we shut it off but quickly went back to 200. So that's normal.

    Seems to be idling much better right now.
    « Last Edit: May 2, 2020, 11:35:42 am by daryl78powerwagon »
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline modelcitizen

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #70 on: May 2, 2020, 11:51:41 am »
    1)no pics showed
    2) recommend run fuel out,stop trying to adjust for shi* gas. Refill with quality gas and see if truck reverts to the way it did prior to this tank of fuel. Is circle k economy regular gas?

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #71 on: May 2, 2020, 12:05:14 pm »
    Sorry forgot pics.
    Just regular circle k 87 octane. Around Phoenix they some times can have sh** batch or they add water to it. Not uncommon. Usually get Costco 87 octane.
    Going to pump the gas into my truck and go get new gas. I don't want to try and run this gas out. It was really knocking and don't want to run it like that. It got really really bad as we were driving it home. Couldn't even go above 40 mph with out it knocking. Wondering if the vacuum advance is pulled in too easily even at a cruise speed. If that's the case could be upwards of 50btdc on the timing even at cruise.

    I will get rid of the gas and try it.


    First 2 pics are of #1 second 2 are #2

    All spark plugs are new less then 500 miles and they were cleaned and regapped while we did the dizzy. So this is with 40 miles on them.

    Wonder if I could try and drive it around without the vacuum advance connected.
    « Last Edit: May 2, 2020, 12:09:22 pm by daryl78powerwagon »
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #72 on: May 2, 2020, 12:26:34 pm »
    Just asking to see if those conditions would likely be gas and or timing?

    yes.

    timing and octane go hand-in-hand. You can use more timing if you have better octane, and need less for less. For now, you can retard your timing a lot, go to zero degrees base time for now. Add a can of octane booster. Then see how it runs.
    '85 W150 SB, 408 stroker, Magnum manifolds, Performer RPM, 670 Truck Avenger, HEI ignition, Auburn LSD 9.25 and '82 D44 (non-CAD) with 3.55/3.54,  NV4500/NP241

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #73 on: May 2, 2020, 12:32:42 pm »
    OK. Will do. Added the royal purple max boost octane booster. Will run it around and see. I will let you know.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #74 on: May 2, 2020, 01:26:04 pm »
    Took it for a drive
     Stomped on it at a few lights and there was absolutely now knocking or pinging. Truck ran real good. Took it back to the freeway and ran it at 65 mph for about 8 miles gas it up some of the hills and there was no knocking. Got off the freeway a back to main roads. Stomped on it a few times and it started to knock just a tiny tiny bit. But no where near yesterday. Drove home normal and it seemed to only knock when you were pulling out of a turn for just a bit. Then it was normal. Stomped on it a few times and no knock. Unbelievable that it was such a difference. The only thing we really changed was the octane booster. The idles screws didn't move much and I barely adjusted the idle speed. The only other difference is it was 10 degrees hotter yesterday when we drove it. Amazing difference. Now know if you get some crappy gas to pick up a bottle of octane. Tomorrow is alignment.

    Thanks you guys for the help. I know I overthink things and can seem thick headed.
    « Last Edit: May 2, 2020, 01:27:35 pm by daryl78powerwagon »
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #75 on: May 2, 2020, 05:25:20 pm »
    Took it for a drive
     Stomped on it at a few lights and there was absolutely now knocking or pinging. Truck ran real good. Took it back to the freeway and ran it at 65 mph for about 8 miles gas it up some of the hills and there was no knocking. Got off the freeway a back to main roads. Stomped on it a few times and it started to knock just a tiny tiny bit. But no where near yesterday. Drove home normal and it seemed to only knock when you were pulling out of a turn for just a bit. Then it was normal. Stomped on it a few times and no knock. Unbelievable that it was such a difference. The only thing we really changed was the octane booster. The idles screws didn't move much and I barely adjusted the idle speed. The only other difference is it was 10 degrees hotter yesterday when we drove it. Amazing difference. Now know if you get some crappy gas to pick up a bottle of octane. Tomorrow is alignment.

    Thanks you guys for the help. I know I overthink things and can seem thick headed.

    You have not come across as thick-headed at all. You've been open to suggestions and had clear, logical steps in your investigations. I'd still be careful with how you use the truck as detonation can be hard on the pistons, and more importantly, you can have some you won't hear. Fill it up with high-octane fuel to further bring up the mix in your tank, as the average octane booster only bring it up a little bit, until you fill it up once more with better gas.
    « Last Edit: May 2, 2020, 06:18:23 pm by ToxicDoc »
    '85 W150 SB, 408 stroker, Magnum manifolds, Performer RPM, 670 Truck Avenger, HEI ignition, Auburn LSD 9.25 and '82 D44 (non-CAD) with 3.55/3.54,  NV4500/NP241

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #76 on: May 2, 2020, 06:10:16 pm »
    Will do and thanks. It's gunna take a while. This truck has a custom aluminum tank that the po made. Did a real good job but it's pretty big so it will take a while to get it down. I wanna say it's like 24 gallons or something like that maybe more.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #77 on: May 2, 2020, 06:56:56 pm »
    This is hypothetical and a theory.

    When we did the steering we removed the inner engine splash guards from the frame. Just a thought but what if the air going under the truck is now blowing up through the engine bay picking up all the engine heat and allowing the extreme hot air being pushed up and sucked into the carb. Thus making the engine intake air hotter than desirable and therefore helping cause the engine to pre detonate. Maybe this is why it happened on yesterday's 104 degree day and not this morning so much but more towards as the truck got hotter and hotter. Not ruling out the gas but hotter air wouldn't be ideal also.

    Just a thought.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #78 on: May 2, 2020, 10:22:35 pm »
    The hot day might have made it more likely, but I doubt the shields played much of a role. it seems clear to me it's an octane issue with the higher temp that day adding to it.
    '85 W150 SB, 408 stroker, Magnum manifolds, Performer RPM, 670 Truck Avenger, HEI ignition, Auburn LSD 9.25 and '82 D44 (non-CAD) with 3.55/3.54,  NV4500/NP241

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #79 on: May 2, 2020, 10:28:51 pm »
    👍🏻
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #80 on: May 7, 2020, 12:18:15 am »
    I am sure I'm gunna get lite up for this questions but!

    Pumped the gas out of the truck into my other truck. Went ahead and got gas at Costco. Took it for a drive today since it was 106* today. Drove on the freeway and it started to knock after a while again. I think I have the timing set too high. Going to back it down some and try it but I did try and set the carb and the idle. It's all over the place. Just doesnt seem to want to stay anywhere. Everything was fine with the old distributor except for running hot on the plugs. When we discovered that the old dizzy only had 22* total mechanical advance it prompted us to change to the spectra ch04 dizzy.
    With that one we are at 35 total mechanical and 11 initial. I can lower the total but then the initial may be too low and thus can't really tune the carb or get the vacuum needed.

    So I been looking at maybe a rtr dizzy (pertronix or msd) or do I just modify the limits on one of the ones I have? I also was looking at fbo from 4 seconds flat.

    Just poking around and looking at the right way to fix this issue. Willing to invest a little since we've done so much so why would I quit at the heartbeat of the truck.

    Currently looking on here on rtr posts and looking for anyone's current experiences and thoughts with out going to an all out msd ignition box or extreme racing stuff. This is a daily and fully stock truck.

    Thanks

    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #81 on: May 7, 2020, 06:34:37 am »
    for now , STOP messing with the dizzy . your post indicates it takes a while driving before "knock" occurs .
     More than 1 thing ( timing) can cause detonation ( spark knock) , piss poor fuel , timing , carbon build up ,wrong heat range spark plugs ,  HEAT . Its just early explosive ignition of the air/fuel charge . high test burns slower , but any gas will lite off too soon in a HOT motor . Up till now timing was blamed , but you found TOO little advance , that didn't melt your old plugs .... so  what temp does your engine reach after a while on the highway in 106 weather ??
     IF you do not have a mechanical temp gauge installed already , buy one , cheap under dash type is fine , an adapter gets screwed into the water jacket of the intake if you have one check that it is NOT plugged with gunk . IMHO if it were just the timing , it would knock as soon as the motor was just warm , if not right away as soon as a low rpm heavy load was applied .....  at low rpms your old dizzy and your current dizzy have the same advance anyway .......... 11 base isn't too high ....... look elsewhere for cause of " knock "  ? does it have an egr valve ?
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #82 on: May 7, 2020, 07:34:49 am »
    for now , STOP messing with the dizzy . your post indicates it takes a while driving before "knock" occurs .
     More than 1 thing ( timing) can cause detonation ( spark knock) , piss poor fuel , timing , carbon build up ,wrong heat range spark plugs ,  HEAT . Its just early explosive ignition of the air/fuel charge . high test burns slower , but any gas will lite off too soon in a HOT motor . Up till now timing was blamed , but you found TOO little advance , that didn't melt your old plugs .... so  what temp does your engine reach after a while on the highway in 106 weather ??


    It only reaches 200 to 205, we have a mechanical guage installed and it works as it starts out low and climbs as the truck heats up. It also indicates heat soak when the truck shuts off.

    IF you do not have a mechanical temp gauge installed already , buy one , cheap under dash type is fine , an adapter gets screwed into the water jacket of the intake if you have one check that it is NOT plugged with gunk . IMHO if it were just the timing , it would knock as soon as the motor was just warm , if not right away as soon as a low rpm heavy load was applied .....  at low rpms your old dizzy and your current dizzy have the same advance anyway .......... 11 base isn't too high ....... look elsewhere for cause of " knock "  ? does it have an egr valve ?

    No egr valve, the emissions have all been removed from the po.

    The sparks plugs we used are autolite same size as the book called for.

    The reason it keeps coming back to the dizzy is the truck ran fine before we moved it when we thought it was making a noise and removed it. Wanting to make sure the timing was right we checked the plugs and the timing and found the white plugs and timing at idle with the old dizzy was at 17* btdc. We started doing all the timing procedures and found that the old dizzy would only go up to 22* of mechanical timing so bought the new one. Truck never knocked before but probably wasnt ever really running at peak performance either. The plugs prior to this were blackish and not white so we know it wasnt running hot then. Now i have the carb setting all moved from where they were and the dizzy has too high of a range. Maybe just put the old dizzy back in and just let it run at a lower performance.

    Not trying to argue or contradict what your saying but it never ever knocked before the new dizzy, even when the old dizzy was set (accidentaly) at 17*btdc intial. So with the old dizzy range it was only at 27*btdc maybe mechanical at 2900rpm. With the old dizzy reset by timing light to 12*btdc initial it was maxing out at 22*btdc at 2900rpm. we didnt go past 2900rpm. Maybe we didnt give it a chance to kick in fully by going to 3500 rpm? With the current dizzy set at 35*to36* total mechanical if I lower it to get say 33 or 34 that would put initial at 9. Is that too low to get the idle to set correctly and get my vacuum up there?

    With all this i learned the hard way to go back to what was originally replaced or changed. Just like what got us here in the first place. The dizzy was removed cause of the pcv chirping and we thought it was the dizzy. Back then i should have checked the pcv being we just changed it a few days earlier.
    « Last Edit: May 7, 2020, 07:50:44 am by daryl78powerwagon »
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #83 on: May 8, 2020, 07:26:00 am »
    when ever the old plugs melted , it was pre-ignition whether you heard a knock or not . that is caused by too far advanced , or hot heads . back it down to say 8 , see if it stumbles badly from idle to accelerate . I doubt your rpms are so high while driving / knocking that the new dizzy has advanced anymore than the old one did , I know I'm not at 3500 while driving normally and accelerating ... ( when it would be knocking ) 

    some intake gaskets have a small hole or zero opening for the water passages at one end , if installed backwards they will block cooling thru heads , there is no water passage at the rear of the intake manifold ... using a perimeter gasket and a plate to remove and block an egr valve leaves the 2 passageways of the manifold open to one another . A full covering gasket to prevent transfer should be used .  your vac seemed high enough this "should not" be the case . key words,  should not.   RN14Y or equivalent ...   
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #84 on: May 8, 2020, 08:05:05 am »
    I will try and back it off and see what happens. I think those are the plugs I have. Not sure what you mean about the egr plate but that's what mine has. Egr was removed and there is a plate there.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #85 on: May 9, 2020, 01:04:01 am »
    look at a standard egr gasket , know that the valve blocks exhaust from entering the intake part of that spot in the manifold , remove the "valve" use that gasket and nothing stops the exhaust from crossing from exhaust port to intake port ..... simple .
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #86 on: May 9, 2020, 06:41:23 am »
    If that's the case then where does the exhaust go into the intake? Also how would you stop it from crossing over to the intake? Wouldn't the plate close the ports off from each other? What's the significance of this, is this a issue or of concern in how it runs or cools itself?
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #87 on: May 9, 2020, 05:15:16 pm »
    LOL a heap of questions LOL . study how an egr valve works . cast into the intake on your engine are 2 passages leading TO the egr valve , a needle/seat type thing . one passage runs to the exhaust , one to the intake , the needle and seat ( egr valve) gets opened by vacume can , allows the hot fuel less exhaust to pass into the passage TO the intake . The engine intake vacume draws it in , reburns the burnt exhaust ...... makes for a leaner air fuel mix . Lean is hot , in the engines combustion chamber .... where your spark plugs live . the normal gasket for an egr valve assembly is just around the perimeter . the castings passages are blocked by the valve when its closed  . remove the valve and both are open to each other UNLESS a full gasket covering them is put under the homemade plate .. if you remove the carb , look down into the intake there you will see a hole , a passage , leading back to the egr valve , where another passage leads to the exhaust cross over in the center of the intake manifold.
     what can happen is about the same as an egr being stuck open , the thickness of the perimeter gasket allows the exhaust a passage to the intake , it runs leaner / hotter . I said can happen .  yes it would be a concern .
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #88 on: May 9, 2020, 08:03:19 pm »
    Sorry for all the questions. You have no idea. The problem is there is Soo much going on in this head I forget what I was told shortly after.


    OK that makes sense. I understand. If it doesn't have the right gasket it can be sneaking by since the gasket holds the plate up. Maybe I should remove the plate and silicone it just to be sure, would be worth it. That in theory amounts to a manifold vacuum leak essentially if I am thinking about it correctly.

    Just a note removed the new dizzy and put the old one back on. The new one just had too much timing built into it. With it settling in at 35 and retarding it a few degrees put me below 9* and it just didn't like to idle. I had the thought it was running fine with the old dizzy or was it?

    I spoke with an old timer on the phone that builds Mopars and man I gotta tell you I am pulling my hair out.

    I described to him my problems. He asked what the temp was and I told him it runs at 205*. He was holy crap that's way too hot. It should be more like 185 to 195. Uugghh, we went over this before with the whole 185 to 195 t Stat deal. When we had the 185 t Stat it supposedly ran too cold at 190. So I switched it to the 195 which made it run at 200 to 205 nothing more nothing less.

    Then he said I may have the throttle plates too far open as the Carter bbd carb I have should not have 12in of vac at idle on the side port on the carb. He said like 0 to 5in at idle at the most. He said the carb is set wrong or has a clogg or needs a rebuild (or maybe I need to check the egr gasket).

    Then he said with my 318 the initial timing should be around 12* and this 318 low compression motor could likely handle 38* of mechanical timing and with the vacuum advance should be like 40 something.



    I keep telling myself to just take it in and have it tuned, but I can't do that I am not like that I have to know why, what and how.

    Right now looking at probably getting a firecore distributor and a rebuilt Carter carb from summit. Maybe it's the best thing to do. Everything else on the truck has been replaced why stop now.

    OH, also did the axles based off the reference holes and the front axle was perfect side to side. The rear was a quarter inch out. Lossened the ubolts and used straps and the axle just shifted perfectly into place. So the axles are now square to the Fram and each other.

    But nevermind that I need to get this to run right once and for all.

    I just went back and read all of the beginning if this post and there is some solid timing info. So I am going to go back and check some things out. But some people have made some good points that maybe the carb is having more issues than I thought and maybe there's some advice to be had on what to look for there.
    « Last Edit: May 9, 2020, 09:14:15 pm by daryl78powerwagon »
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #89 on: May 10, 2020, 02:13:00 am »
    please stay calm ..LOL do not go out and buy yet another dizzy . start by using logic ... think it thru .

     your worried about the new dizzy having too much advance thats why its pinging . stop ..

    at what rpm does it ping ? at what rpm does the dizzy's fly weights advance it  fully ? I bet it pings long before that rpm is reached ... so the TOTAL amount that dizzy advances it has not even been reached , its not that .

     yes if the throttle plate is held open by the idle speed screw , BECAUSE your compensating for a different problem with that adjustment , it can have more VAC on the dizzy that it "should" at idle ,
     BLOCKED passages will NOT increase INcrease flow , blocked anything DEcreases flow .....NO ???? don't start replacing the carb ..... 1 thing at a time please or you'll have a complete nightmare .... NO fancy aftermarket dizzy ! please ...
     egr blocker .. its a flat plate correct ? remove the 2 nuts , use some thin cardboard , or gasket material from a/p store , MAKE a full gasket don't use JUST silicone and only use the heat resistant type IF any . 

     210* is NOT too high , its a matter of where the highest temps ARE as well ... the T stat does NOT controll the max temp , the cooling system does ....... the t stat stays closed untill a warm minimum is reached , its to help warm up faster ..... yes it has/had an effect on the max temp ... a secondary one .. water boils at 212 , your running 50/50 mix THEN adding a pressure cap , the boiling point is now much higher , like 240 +/-
    190 is just a little cold .... all these small blocks can run better warmer and use the 195 , going lower because the water jacket is full of gunk , will not cool the clogged hot spots anyway .... logic ..

     you keep refering to the 35* degrees max , but your engine is NOT running at the rpm necessary to reach the 35*s  and its pinging , so the TOTAL advance IS not THE  issue , base maybe , ( 10 should work tho ) or lean or heat or real BAD gas (you should be able to run the cheapest shit out there )... or mid grade ... set light for 10 and lock when on the ZERO degrees on crank pulley , not 10 or your at 20 base ....
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #90 on: May 10, 2020, 08:00:23 am »
    I was looking up some stuff on the carb adjustments for the Carter BBD so i understand it. I found that the idle could be screwed if the idle circuits are clogged ( this is what the old timer was saying also) and how to tell if they are is if you look down the barrell while its running at idle and if you see gas dripping down into the carb they are clogged. I noticed it doing this a few weeks ago when i started all this. I just assumed it was suppose to do that. Am i correct in what i read here. If so i guess i should follow the procedure to try and unclog them. obviously i wont be able to adjust the carb unless the carb is working correctly. Timing first then carb as i understand, but thats assuming the carbs working correctly. Unless the dripping could be caused by damaged idle screws or incorrectly adjusted?

    This is from a jeep forum i found.

    "For a sure diagnosis, park the Jeep with the engine off and remove the air cleaner cover. There should be a plate over the throat of the carb, the choke plate. If you open the choke plate you should be able to see down the throat of the carb and you should see two screws with holes in the middle of them. Next to them are two passages with a nozzle in the middle of each. This thing is known as the venturi, when air passes by, fuel is supposed to be drawn out through the nozzles. If the idle tubes are clogged fuel will drip from those nozzles during idle."

    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #91 on: May 10, 2020, 10:12:45 am »
    spark plug
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    MOPAR TO YA!!!!!! AARON HOWORD TOWNSEND / SLANTEDMIND---GOD BLESSDODGEBOYS FSM STORE
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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #92 on: May 10, 2020, 04:07:10 pm »
    Took out the venturi to check the idle tubes. They were not blocked but the screws holding the venturi down weren't even tight, not one bit not even snug. So I suspect the dripping we saw was gas leaking out under the gasket for the venturi. So got that all back together.
    Turned the idle screws in and back out 1.5 turns. Now to set  the accelerator linkage screws. I know the fast idle is set OK but where is the idle screw suppose to be. Obviously I don't want the throttle plates to be open as to not get too much vacuum on my ported vacuum. I find all kinds of things to set the idle mixture screws but nothing on how to set the linkage idle screw. If anyone can help me with where that's suppose to be that would be great. After that I will start it up and start with 10* initial and go from there.
    Thanks
    D
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #93 on: May 10, 2020, 04:30:51 pm »
    idle speed screw ? you don't know where that is ? I'll want a photo of the throttle linkage side of YOUR carb , then I'll tell ya . what should be on an old truck by its year and what IS on one can be very different . photo required .

     you checked / fixed the egr plate ?

     your carb is a basic unit , one that will work well . never rod out any passages in such a way that will enlarge them on any carb .

     know that while driving the truck , those throttle plates are open past the dizzy vacume port . its only at idle that they may not be , again not when/where your experiencing knock , does the knock occur when depressing the gas pedal , or when at cruse ? depressing correct ? when you depress the pedal under load ( driving) the vacume drops , vac advance also drops .....vac port / throttle plate at idle not the knock problem , may be the idle problem but ...
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #94 on: May 10, 2020, 05:03:54 pm »
    idle speed screw ? you don't know where that is ? I'll want a photo of the throttle linkage side of YOUR carb , then I'll tell ya . what should be on an old truck by its year and what IS on one can be very different . photo required .

    Pic attached. The idle speed screw I guess. How far in should it be screwed in. Right now the choke is set so it's on the fast idle screw. How far or where should it be set as to not open the throttle plates too much to get vacuum on the port?
    you checked / fixed the egr plate ?

    Not yet. Forgot about it and it's 104 here so called it quits for the day, maybe tonight.


    your carb is a basic unit , one that will work well . never rod out any passages in such a way that will enlarge them on any carb .

    NO we didn't have to do anything other than made sure they were clean and reinstalled tightly.

    know that while driving the truck , those throttle plates are open past the dizzy vacume port . its only at idle that they may not be , again not when/where your experiencing knock , does the knock occur when depressing the gas pedal , or when at cruse ? depressing correct ? when you depress the pedal under load ( driving) the vacume drops , vac advance also drops .....vac port / throttle plate at idle not the knock problem , may be the idle problem but ...

    It was mostly under load going up inclines and when accelerating you had to keep your foot off the pedal just enough not to knock.
    « Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 08:49:32 pm by daryl78powerwagon »
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #95 on: May 11, 2020, 12:39:16 am »
    logic ,
    "It was mostly under load going up inclines and when accelerating you had to keep your foot off the pedal just enough not to knock. "
     so at a rpm well below the dizzys mechanical advance max , and with the throttle opened , but engine not up to the speed(rpms) requested by the open throttle position , your vacum is LOW , so the vac advance is NOT in play .
    Therefor the vac from the carb , and mechanical advance systems in the dizzy are NOT what makes it ping/knock . So to worry about the amount of vac from carb at this point is obsessing in scattered directions , repairing / changing things that aren't in question , it happens to many folks when they become frustrated ( SP?) Try NOT to let it happen ...... 

     your question about where the idle speed screw "belongs" ... there is NO spec on how far in /out it "should" be, it goes by the idle rpm . Looking at yours , I see NO drastic setting . on full choke as it is I would expect what I see . Your arrow IS the warm idle speed screw ... 
     back off on the "base" timing , check for erg plate crossover . leave the working carb alone for now .... just check that choke after it is hot , make sure its fully open , and the idle screw is sitting on its stop tip , and NOT the choke idle screw holding open the carb ... it should be "below" its cam ...   
     note how the egr block plate seems to have/be getting hot all across its surface , a "sign" exhaust is active under plate ?  a vacume leak dilutes the air fuel mix , making it too lean , lean can/will increase the likelihood of ping/knock ...worth a lookie see ........... a crude 2 stud hole full gasket ? 
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #96 on: May 11, 2020, 06:42:32 am »
    That makes alot of sense, all of it. As well as the burnt looking plate. Definately doing that today. With some gasket material and some copper permatex.
    Now I feel like that new dizzy I returned should have stayed.
    Well we shall see what we have with the old one.

    Let's just say if this old distributor maxes out at 22btdc total mechanical timing. Does it make sense to adjust it by opening up the slots, and getting some better milage and performance out of it.
    When your done thinking what a javkass won't leave well enough alone. Lol.
     I like to tweek things and now that I know how to adjust the curve I may want to do that. It seems inefficient to have the heavy springs in there where the rpms have to be at 2900 to 3500 to get full advance. That would always be at highway speeds or more and it's just not going to be on the freeway much.
    For 20 bucks summit has this spring and gapping kit. Might make the old dizzy a little more efficient. Might be worth the work.
    « Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 07:15:53 am by daryl78powerwagon »
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #97 on: May 11, 2020, 10:54:10 am »
    Why don't you take distributor out,disassemble and clean and lube and reinstall. Set base timing at 10-12 degrees,see what centrifugal is,hook up vacuum advance to ported source on carb and drive truck to see how it runs.

    The spring kit you're looking at is meant for a car that weighs less than the truck,lighter springs will bring in advance too soon/much and exacerbate pinging/detonation issues.

    Stop trying to squeeze every ounce of performance out of a stock 318 engine. Clean and rebuild carburetor so it runs like it's supposed to and give it to the kid to drive,it's not hi tech,not a hot rod.

    This has been said before,if you want more power,build an engine and swap it in. Being this truck is going to be driven by a young person,perhaps at least for now,less horsepower is better?

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #98 on: May 11, 2020, 11:06:37 am »
    Hee hee. I know, I get carried away.
    Will do.
    Maybe I aught get one of my own so I can do what I want to it.

    Thanks
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #99 on: May 12, 2020, 12:20:58 am »
    I agree , don't mess with the total OR the rpm of the advance , at least untill you stop the pinging .
     yes make it run like a low horsepower , dependable , good running , older 318 that it IS . Pinging , like it does , you haven't gotten that far yet .
     Always make a motor run correctly as it was built , BEFORE you attempt to make it better than stock . know that the most important part of the advance system as far as fuel economie goes is having a working vacume advance , which , I think you have .
     the diff between 34* and 22* TOTAL at rpm , you will not even be able to "feel" , or see on the fuel gauge ... The best thing for fuel mileage ? drive like an old man ,and  you know that's NOT going to happen  with either you or your son ..... yet .... start out easy , let off early .. stay below 55 enjoy the scenery and tunes ...... LOL .....
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump