Author Topic: Timing 318 2 barrel  (Read 5987 times)

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Offline daryl78powerwagon

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Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
« Reply #100 on: May 12, 2020, 08:25:04 am »
Sounds like a plan.
Thanks for the settin me straight. I just always have that let's make it better, since we're in there let's do it better. So those are very wise thoughts to just let it be what it is and enjoy it.



That's exactly what my dad would have said also. Been gone 6 years and miss his words of wisdom dearly.

Thanks guys.
D
1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

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    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #101 on: May 12, 2020, 11:17:35 pm »
    Old egr block off plate gasket. It's all cracked but under pressure I am sure blow by was probably minimal but none the less it was in bad shape. Got hi temp gasket material and hi temp rtv. Wait 24 hrs then ready to fire it up. But before I do what would be the reason for hard starting. We pump the gas like 2 or 3 times then hold the key to start. Takes about 10 to 20 seconds or more for it to fire up. Probably being picky, I just remember my 74 jeep never had to give it gas and literally just bumped the key and it light up like right now. Was like that forever. One time I started it with it in gear and I wasn't in the jeep. Ya, it took off. Took a while to catch it. That may answer quite a few questions for some of ya.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #102 on: May 13, 2020, 12:37:25 am »
    .......pop's been gone 42 years now , I had to grow up to understand him , I will never stop missing him , his advice , he was my friend for sure ...
     
     yep , the crack between the 2 ports , a small leak for sure , stopping that is 1 step in the right direction .

     starting : every one will be a little different , sounds like yours IS a little slow to go , BUT that depends on how long it has been sitting , overnite , a day , or 2 . The G/F's 87 WITH that same carb ( I changed it for those who know what "belongs" there ) fires right off overnite , 2 pumps , cranks quite a while after a week sitting .... newer gas evaporates faster than it ounce did . ( injector systems now are pressurized BEFORE you crank it , and pretty much "closed" to atmousefear.. LOL ) your carb bowl is wide open , vented . no fast fix , slow adjustments it will get better ...

     yep there is 2 things there exhaust "pressure" , AND intake vacume ...... both trying to come together ..." nature abhors a vacume" .... 
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Online Jeffy45

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #103 on: May 13, 2020, 03:28:13 am »
    This is a really good post, and I'm just going to throw this out there, run the gas tank down low stop running that crap gas put some 93 octane in there a couple tanks and I bet it doesn't ping anymore🙃
    1988 Ramcharger LE 150 318 TBI 727 non-lockup.                   
           " If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it,   
                    he is obligated to do so"                                                   
                                                                 - Thomas Jefferson

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #104 on: May 13, 2020, 07:36:53 am »
    I will mess around with the carb and try and tune it up.

    Its time for an oil change. I been using that shell 15w40. Would it make a difference to use the shell 10w30 to see if it might run a little cooler since it's a bit thinner, or is it not going to make a difference? I know thicker fluids can be harder to cool.
    « Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 07:38:41 am by daryl78powerwagon »
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Online Jeffy45

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #105 on: May 13, 2020, 08:35:31 am »
    93 octane
    1988 Ramcharger LE 150 318 TBI 727 non-lockup.                   
           " If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it,   
                    he is obligated to do so"                                                   
                                                                 - Thomas Jefferson

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #106 on: May 13, 2020, 01:11:34 pm »
     no I'd use the 15-40 non synthetic . leave the thinner oils for the newer autos .. 
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #107 on: May 16, 2020, 01:30:48 pm »
    1) Found that leak on the idle venturi and checked the idle tubes. Tubes were clear and tightened the venturi to stop the dripping into the carb.
    2) found a leak at the egr block off plate. Sealed it with hitemp gasket material and hitemp red rtv.

    Set the idle screws 2 turns out and started the truck. Set the initial to 10*.
    Got 5 inches vacuum at the carb and 15 inches at manifold. Screwed the idle screws out just a bit more and the carb vacuum went to 1 inch and getting 18.5 inches at the manifold, idle set to 740. No more misfire and truck idles well. Ran it up to 3200 rpm getting 23* total mechanical with  vacuum unplugged and capped. Mechanical advance started at 1100 rpm and maxed at 3200 rpm and manifold vacuum was at 23inches at roughly 1500 rpm and higher.

    We then tried it at 14* btdc initial and still have the same vacuum numbers and idle went up a little bit. At 14* the mechanical went up to 25* at 3300 rpm so the distrubutor has roughly 11 to 12 degrees of mechanical advance as well as the more we advance the initial the further out the all in mechanical is going to get. So advancing the initial just to get up to 34* all in mechanical would likley be out to like 4200  rpm and the truck just won't ever see that as well as make the initial timing 22*. At 14* initial with vacuum advance we maxed out at 42*btdc at 3300 rpm but that's with no load or anything.

    I thought maybe 14* initial was too high so we backed it down to 12* initial and we maxed mechanical advance at 3200 at 24* and with vacuum advance it maxed out at 41 to 42* at 3200 rpm.

    We also found that the vacuum advance has 17* and kicks in at 9inches of vacuum and is all in at 12inches. So the 8.5 on the can means 17* as it should and it does.

    Turned the truck off and it starts right up but we did have to adjust the idle as it was down to 650 we raised it to 730ish. Restarted it several times and it starts fine.

    So this distributor has 11* of mechanical advance built into it. Seems really low from what everyone is stating that it should be close to 20* to 22* mechanical advance. Along with that if the initial was set at 10* with 22* mechanical it would be 32* mechanical advance with vacuum advance would be around 49* btdc at a cruise speed.

    With all that the truck seems to run good and we haven't taken it out for a drive yet, will do that later. But I just think that there is quite a bit left on the table for some added gas mileage.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #108 on: May 17, 2020, 12:50:51 am »
    you ARE obsessing . Too hung up on total amount of mech advance  , at some point you DID think to add the vac advance into equation ( SP) but seemed to dismiss that figure ... sad because in actual use that would be the one to go by .
    YOUR most important test is does it ping ? Gas mileage ? think about this : that ping ? its the noise made when the piston is comming UP and an early detonation is trying to drive it back DOWN , before it reaches the center of the cranks throw ,(TDC) trying to turn the crank BACKWARDS .... yeah that'll eat some gas mileage right now .

     imo 14 static is about the MAX , you may find 10 is better . This is with a stock motor , so the fellas with al sorts of mods running 16 are not the same as yours .

     THE ONLY advance in use when detonation /ping/spark knock normally occurs will be the static , base YOU set .
    you will never hear/see/get it to knock with out a load , reving in driveway is great for producing quantifying numbers to obsess over , but thats about all its good for .  You have done a good job obtaining / reporting / noting these numbers , for that I commend you , really . Even the metered carb vac port is working ,Time to set it to what it needs/wants , record the results use them as the spec for that engine ..... :)

     attach your vac gauge to manifold vac , place it so you can see it while driving , drive up hill , in high gear at slow speed , step on gas , listen for ping , LOOK at vac gauge and tachometer note low rpm's before mech advance takes effect , and low vacume when vac advance is NOT in effect , only advance is your base /static setting ..  the harder you step on gas , the lower the vacume ..... the more likely it will ping . ping/knock caused by too much advance not too little ...
    « Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 02:17:49 am by dodge82273 »
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #109 on: May 31, 2020, 09:50:59 am »
    So we now have the initial set at 5*btdc. We were getting a bit of knock at 12 and reduced it considerably. We hooked the vacuum Gauge up and ran it into the cab. We drove it around and are getting the same exact vacuum and rpm as when it was at 12btdc initial. So for sake of not knocking out here in this 110 heat were having we figured since it's getting the same numbers within 50 rpm at cruising speeds of 45,50,65 and 68mph. Anything past 68 mph the vacuum tanked to 10and the rpm was around 2800. Back down to 68 and vacuum picks back up rpm goes down quite a bit and you barely have to keep your foot on the gas to cruise.

    What we also did during this was check out bolts at the coil positive with the key in run engine off and we were only getting 6 Volts. Knowing that it should be between 7and 9 we tried to find out why we were getting low Volts. Long story short we tried different ballast resistors 4pin and a different ecu box. We were able to get the bolts to 7.4 with the new box at the coil positive. However we suddenly lost decent charge. We were getting a charge of 14.2 to 14.4 at the battery before but now we are only getting 12.8v. While messing with things we tried a 2 prong ballast and left the other side of the ballast disconnected and we also removed the wire plug to the ecu with the battery connected. So we either did something to the vr, ecu or just made a voltage drop issue apperant. With the batt fully charged to 13.3 I turn on the key it goes to 12.61, I then test at both red wires on the ballast and I am getting 10.91 So I have about 1.7 volt drop somewhere. Or did I fry the vr, ecu or ignition switch.

    We went from charging at 14.2 at the batt to 13.3 at the back of the alt when the engine is hot but the Gauge in the cab says 12v. What did I do?
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #110 on: May 31, 2020, 10:07:14 am »
    You damaged or disconnected something.

    First thing to do is see if you have voltage to the field wire going to the alternator and to the charging stud. If you have 0 volts at the stud, your charge wire is broken/separated. If you have 0 volts at the field wire, then that wire is disconnected somewhere. If both have approximate battery voltage (allowing some loss for resistance in the circuits) then the VR is bad or the alternator died (VR being more likely generally).
    '85 W150 SB, 408 stroker, Magnum manifolds, Performer RPM, 670 Truck Avenger, HEI ignition, Auburn LSD 9.25 and '82 D44 (non-CAD) with 3.55/3.54,  NV4500/NP241

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #111 on: May 31, 2020, 10:10:18 am »
    So I test with the key on engine off? The field wire and positive post on the alt? How do I test the vr?
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #112 on: May 31, 2020, 10:35:54 am »
    I have 13.08 at the battery. I have 10.9 at the red field wire on the alt with the key in run position. It's Tha same as the red wire on the ballast resistor.

    Tested positive battery post to red field wire of alt and get 13.4v and red wire if ballast and get 13.4. So this tells me I have. 04v drop in the ign harness?

    Removed the neg cable on batt, removed plug on ecu with key on I get 11.98v at the red term 1 on the ecu plug. Within 1 volt of batt Volts.
    « Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 10:49:31 am by daryl78powerwagon »
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #113 on: May 31, 2020, 10:48:59 am »
    There are 2 field wires. Make sure one is disconnected when you test (and yes, key on for this test). at that point, one should read 0 (it goes back to the ground side of the regulator), and the other about battery voltage 10.9 is too low compared to 13.08 at battery).

    *What is your voltage at the alternator charge stud?* (key on, engine off)
    '85 W150 SB, 408 stroker, Magnum manifolds, Performer RPM, 670 Truck Avenger, HEI ignition, Auburn LSD 9.25 and '82 D44 (non-CAD) with 3.55/3.54,  NV4500/NP241

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #114 on: May 31, 2020, 10:57:12 am »
    There are 2 field wires. Make sure one is disconnected when you test (and yes, key on for this test). at that point, one should read 0 (it goes back to the ground side of the regulator), and the other about battery voltage 10.9 is too low compared to 13.08 at battery).


    Red wire disconnected, key on I get. 02 at green field terminal. With the red wires still doss connected I get 12.9v at the red wire and nothing on the alt red wire terminal.

    *What is your voltage at the alternator charge stud?* (key on, engine off)

    I get 12.9v alt charge stud exact same as battery.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #115 on: May 31, 2020, 11:01:56 am »
    This means you have an intact connection from the alternator to the battery, and you have correct power to the regulator. next step is a momentary full-field test (not for modern computerized cars).

    You reconnect red wire. disconnect green wire and replace it with a secure loose wire. You start truck. then go back to engine with voltmeter connected at battery. You momentarily ground this loose wire 1-2 seconds.

    if voltage climbs, you have diagnosed a bad regulator (you were acting as one)

    if voltage does not go up, you have something wrong in the alternator
    '85 W150 SB, 408 stroker, Magnum manifolds, Performer RPM, 670 Truck Avenger, HEI ignition, Auburn LSD 9.25 and '82 D44 (non-CAD) with 3.55/3.54,  NV4500/NP241

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #116 on: May 31, 2020, 11:17:32 am »
    Sons prepping that test right now. What would cause so much volt drop at the ballast resistor red wire from the batt. That's where we have 12. 61 at batt and 10.9 at red wire of ballast with key on.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #117 on: May 31, 2020, 11:34:08 am »
    Did full field test. Goes up to 15.5v and climbing. With the green field wire reconnected it has 14.4v at high idle at alt charge post and at battery. Also checked red wire at the ballast and have 13.8 so less than a volt drop to that. So alt is working and so is the v regulator. Looked at the Volts on the dash Gauge and have 13.5 so a full volt lower than the meter at the battery so I have a full 1v drop at the dash. Does this make sense? One thing we did do is have the coil unmounted during some tests and that has a ground to the manifold under the coil mount. With this disconnected and the truck running maybe the dash didn't have full ground and damaged the gauges cause it seems the temp Gauge is reading about degrees lower than norm also we noticed.
    « Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 11:36:05 am by daryl78powerwagon »
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #118 on: May 31, 2020, 12:38:53 pm »
    Took the connectors off the volt Gauge and have about. 5 to 1v volt drop from battery. Batt is at 13.0v and getting 12.45 at volt meter.

    Checked the red wire at the ballast and get 11.2, at the other side of ballast I get 5.9v and getting 5.64v at the coil with the key on run engine off.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #119 on: May 31, 2020, 02:04:48 pm »
    Your alternator works. Your regulator looks to have some intermittent failing (maybe from a voltage drop to it). Loss of voltage in your year vehicle is resistance in the ammeter (a common issue - google search it. comes up often as the ammeter bypass), failing ignition switch, corrosion of wires/terminals, or typically some combination thereof.
    '85 W150 SB, 408 stroker, Magnum manifolds, Performer RPM, 670 Truck Avenger, HEI ignition, Auburn LSD 9.25 and '82 D44 (non-CAD) with 3.55/3.54,  NV4500/NP241

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #120 on: May 31, 2020, 02:58:10 pm »
    The ammeter has been bypassed. The bulkhead has been bypassed and a direct power wire loop is going through the dash. Bulkhead connectors have all been clean resqueezed the terminals and greased. The same for the ignition switch connector. We were getting proper readings at the volt meter before I went and screwed with the ballast resistor trying the 2 prong. Directly after all that is when it started. So unless switching to a 2 prong ballast miraculously caused a bad connection to become apperant or doing that burn or did something to the ignition switch.

    Don't really know but it was fine before I did that.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #121 on: May 31, 2020, 03:05:45 pm »
    Don't know what else to tell you. You'd have to trace the circuit all the way and consider corrosion or partially burned wires not showing through the insulation. Wire corrosion is hard to find so usually you can just replace some lengths. The alternative is getting wire through an ignition-activated relay to bring battery current to the regulator. This would bypass everything and give you direct battery voltage.
    '85 W150 SB, 408 stroker, Magnum manifolds, Performer RPM, 670 Truck Avenger, HEI ignition, Auburn LSD 9.25 and '82 D44 (non-CAD) with 3.55/3.54,  NV4500/NP241

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #122 on: May 31, 2020, 03:23:28 pm »
    Guess I'm gunna have to try and trace it. Maybe try a new ignition switch and see if that's where it's dropping. I think the vr is getting the correct reading that's why it seems to be charging. I think my issue really is there is voltage drop in the ignition wiring that gives the red wires to the ballast power and to the dash or in the dash somewhere.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #123 on: June 1, 2020, 08:25:44 pm »
    poor connections , wires too thin to "carry" the applied load , you know the reasons for voltage drop ...   

      manifold vacume will be up or down depending on if the engine rpms are UP to the speed you foot asks for , step down vac drops , allow it to catch up vac returns to high .   untill high speed where the truck don't wanna go any faster , and your allways stepping harder than its catching up to speed . vac low , gas mileage low ..

     step down timing retards ,( because vac advance lost its vac )  it catches up and timing advances , ( because it got the vac back )
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #124 on: June 1, 2020, 09:31:54 pm »
    I gotta be totally honest with you guys. I went ahead and moved forward with getting a new distributor. That's where some of these things arose from, me trying to make it better. I know I'm gunna get blown up but I had to try it and I wanted to know and wanted to see.
    I got the summit distributor kit that came with a coil, ballast resistor, wiring harness and an orange ecu box. I was able to find out for sure that the kit was made by firecore for summit Racing. I figured I needed the distributor and all the other stuff could just be spares since some of this stuff is known for going out. I figured why not. Plus it's on sale and was a great price.

    Well when we got it we switched everything (except the harness) over without doing any adjusting to the distributor. It knocked immediately even at 10* initial. The timing came in waaay too fast up to 32* total mechanical by 2400 rpm. We then pulled the distributor and put 1 heavy spring and one medium spring. We then adjust the plate to add 20* mechanical advance using the adjusting keys that came with it. It was very easy to do and I have to tell you it is a real nice distributor and kit. The truck was able to cool for a while since it was knocking before. We revved the truck up in the driveway. The distributor did exactly what I wanted, it had 19* mechanical built in using the 20* key and set at 12* initial the mechanical topped out at 31* at 3350 rpm. The distributor had about 2*to4* timing for every 200 to 400 rpm. We also adjusted the vacuum can to come in at 9inches and was all in 13inches at 14*. Took it for a drive and no knock for a few miles but we started up a hill and it knocked. We both got upset and we just said we should had left well enough alone. But the truck ran great with all that new stuff in it. I am sure had we reset the initial to 10* it would have been great. Being we were frustrated we took everything out and returned it to the original distributor and 12* and took it for a drive. Low and behold it knocked right out of the driveway. What happened, we put everything back to the way it was. Long story short I think what happened is with all the timing and changing and driving we had the engine so hot that it was going to detonate no matter what was in it. We let the truck sit over night with out touching anything. Truck fired right up and seems to be running fine right now.

    Bottom line is the summit kit is a great kit and the distributor was so easy to adjust and did exactly what it was suppose to do. I guess had we let it sit over night to cool off we likely would have had it running really good with the new kit if we just backed it down to 10*

    But we are back with all the old original stuff for right now. Why am I telling you this when I know you all are gunna laugh and say damn kids can't leave well enough alone. Well I guess it's cause I want you all to know what a great kit and dizzy that is and I wouldn't hesitate to put one in a any mopar and would highly recommend that firecore distributor from summit.

    Its just how I am and sometimes I gotta just see for myself and I like to tinker.

    I really think it's time to get my own project.

    Good thing is now we both now how to curve a distributor I guess.  ;D

    Who knows maybe we will retry it soon and see what we get.

     https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-851003-1
    « Last Edit: June 1, 2020, 09:39:33 pm by daryl78powerwagon »
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #125 on: June 2, 2020, 04:15:05 am »
    there are many ways to learn , I had a 6 year older brother , I watched some of his ... um ... lessons , and did not need to re invent the wheel . LOL some I just hadda do myself too ...just not the ones that pissed pop off ... ;)

     my observations on you trip , for some reason you seem hung up on a coupla things ,
     1 a certain amount of "base" advance
     2 a certain amount of total advance
    you seem to think the more total advance you can get it to take , the better it is , and are set on a specific number ... the diff between 28 and 32/4  is too tight a tolerance .. for the total ..
     make the motor you have happy , each is a little different , compression , flow , fuel , all make slight differences .
     did you know that the exhaust stroke is the most stress placed on the lower end ? rod bearings and the like ?
    because the rod has no resistance when it reaches the end of the stroke and reverses direction from UP to down.

     the cooling down over nite is fine and dandy , but it should cool down enough while running at a high idle with no load after 5 or 10 mins . think stuck in traffic , hot day , traffic opens up , your towing a small trailer , or have some stuff in bed , you can't use overnite cool down to "correct" a timing issue then .... so don't count on that .

     the knock occurs most when you try to up the rpms under load , if it does it in the driveway ,with no load as soon as ya touch the throttle , its WAY TOO much base advance  damage WILL occur . broke rings , holes in piston tops, shot rod bearings , worn crank  . do not try to make your old dodge "perfect" it never was .   hell by design the fuseable links are a restriction to current flow , a weak "link" .. LOL   
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #126 on: June 2, 2020, 07:59:12 am »
    Good advice and lesson well learned as we saw it didn't improve much except a cleaner idle really. Seemed much more precise in the timing mark that was about it. The old distributor seems to search for the timing mark when the new one was very very steady. But that could have been the box or even a better coil, I don't know. There was absolutely no power gain from where we had it originally. Not only that with the tach readings and the vacuum reading we had while driving (put the vac Gauge and timing light in the cab while we drove. The rpms and the vacuum were very similar on the two distributors. The new one had an inch more vacuum and a bit less rpm at the same speeds as the old. So a bit more efficient. Then going back to our chart from when we revved the engine to see where mechanical kicked in we saw that the timing would have been within 1 or 2 degrees of each other at everyday cruising use.

    But lesson learned and now we know.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #127 on: June 2, 2020, 06:00:48 pm »
    I went thru the whole thing I see others doing , cams , rockers , lifters , dizzys , coils ,  I even had headders on one of my trucks . While I never went to a track with it , I cannot say they did any more for its speed/power than make me think it was powerful because of the "sound" besides that they were a constant maintenance issue , solve 1 problem face the next ... after a few years of that , never again ...I like using factory parts , the rockers for example are adjustable from a 273 , I'd run dual point dizzys , springs changed slots elongated ect , I now use magnum coils on L/A's , magnum cast iron manifolds fit L/A's , flow better ..   but I CAN say I've done it .... so I understand .  Today we run 3 trucks , '93 360 1/2 shortie power options galore , 354's , a '93 3/4 318 8' 410's and an '87 1/2 8' 318 stock except the carb is older ..... the 93 3/4 gets 14mpg consistently 'round town . the shortie has THE MOST POWER by far , was getting 15-16 till the pcm got changed , 13-14 now but needs maintenance which will help  . The '93 360 1 ton F/B dump , is not figured , it does its job . 
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #128 on: June 6, 2020, 03:16:51 pm »
    Well huge bummer today. We found out the balancer us bad. When we first bought the truck a year ago I put a permanent mark on the balancer to make sure it wasn't moving. Today we were timed the truck to what we thought was 10* initial and truck was running great. Got under there to bleed the brakes and install the steering stabilizer and low and behold the mark I made is moved. Has a quarter inch gap in it now. So now who knows what the timings at, runs good.

    So we have to change it for sure but before I do I need to know a few things.

    I know I have to use a tool to remove and reinstall. Do you have to change the seal or can I change the seal without having to remove the timing cover and how difficult is this going to be as far as what all could I expect to go wrong or are there any tips I need to know before I get started?

    Also what kind of balancer do I get? Just a stick replacement or any particular brand that would be better to get. Also what seal cause if I can change it I would rather do it now? And how long should this take?
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline Canadian country boy

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #129 on: June 7, 2020, 01:06:26 am »
    I've had success removing the front crank seal many times. Don't smash it out hard or you could bend or deform the cover so just use as much force as it takes to remove it (carefull of the crank snout). Use a small (narrow) chisel or screwdriver and strike the seal inward right on the corner at the edge near the cover itself. Strike it enough to get a screwdriver and pry the rest of it out. The time and difficulty of the task depends on your experience really. I'd say a few hours to do it for you. I'd use a Mopar or SKF seal and I'd replace the ballancer with a Mopar ballancer also. Mopar has optional ballencers you can choose from the last time I cheked. It all depends on your budget but if your engine is mostly stock then a Mopar stock replacement is all you need.
    « Last Edit: June 7, 2020, 01:10:42 am by Canadian country boy »
    Dodge boys have more fun!  Get with the adult toys from Dodge!
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    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #130 on: June 7, 2020, 01:35:41 am »
    the thing to remember 318 engines are internally balanced meaning the balancer your replacing is neutral , while a 360 is externally balanced , meaning that balancer has a heavy spot and a lighter spot ...  the "cover" is aluminum , a hook is used to pull the seal out , a tube, socket , pipe the od of the seal can be placed over the crank snout to tap the new seal into place .   ME ? I'd time that 318 by "ear" and forget about the damper unless it was actually comming apart ................. really , it does not balance anything anyway .   
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #131 on: June 7, 2020, 08:13:28 am »
    I thought about finding and marking TDC on it and leaving it, however it had a wobble to it before I don't know if it still does. It's my thought that if it already moved or wobbled I should bite the bullet and do it. As much as I don't want to I probably should. Not worried about the money at all. Just doing it is my hesitation.

    As far as Mopar one I can't find one that's for my truck.

    If I do replace it, is replacing the seal totally needed?

    I am aware it doesn't balance it but if that puppy decides to slide off that rubber isn't that going to be a disaster?
    I think the cover is cast so my fear is cracking it trying to remove the seal.

    I was thinking if these.

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pbb-pb1004n

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pfs-80012

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rnb-594-021

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mah-64573

    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Online Jeffy45

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #132 on: June 7, 2020, 09:31:32 am »
    If it helps........
    1988 Ramcharger LE 150 318 TBI 727 non-lockup.                   
           " If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it,   
                    he is obligated to do so"                                                   
                                                                 - Thomas Jefferson

    Offline modelcitizen

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #133 on: June 7, 2020, 01:07:00 pm »
    Get your balancer rebuilt like another member here did recently. He seemed very happy with quality of the work and posted before and after pictures. Currently on my phone and can't find thread-it was recent.

    Some words of advice,stop trying to upgrade everything on truck...especially with parts from a speed shop.
    They sell high priced stuff a stock engine doesn't need and a lot of cheap crap with names like Dorman that you're better off staying away from.
     No,i did not click on links. That truck made it this many years with Ma Mopar parts on it,use stock type parts on it,it does not have a high perf engine in it-yet...
    « Last Edit: June 7, 2020, 01:10:44 pm by modelcitizen »

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #134 on: June 7, 2020, 01:29:34 pm »
    Only thought towards certain parts are to try and pay a little more and get something better than the China replacements. Not trying to make it a performance engine. That's not the reason I am shopping at speed shops. Not willing to pay 400 for a 40 year old NOS one off ebay either. The one that's on there isn't the original since po rebuilt the motor. Obviously this one failed so want to go a little better. I will look into having it rebuilt. But by no means am I trying to go performance. I was simply interested in ones that had good reviews. I don't care if it's 50 or 400 I just want a good one that will last.

    Not to mention that hole debockle of the front drive shaft that o had rebuilt over and over and over only have to have a brand new one built that finally solved the problem. I am not a real big fan of having anything rebuilt for the most part. Maybe back in the day but it seems harder and harder to find anyone around that does a good job anymore unfortunately. Everything is slap it together and cross your fingers. Then when you ask too many questions they think your a freak and blow you off.
    « Last Edit: June 7, 2020, 01:56:14 pm by daryl78powerwagon »
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Online Jeffy45

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #135 on: June 7, 2020, 04:07:06 pm »
    Everything  is made in China ,mostly..... even high dollar crankshafts
    1988 Ramcharger LE 150 318 TBI 727 non-lockup.                   
           " If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it,   
                    he is obligated to do so"                                                   
                                                                 - Thomas Jefferson

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #136 on: June 7, 2020, 05:35:14 pm »
    Unfortunately that is all too true. However hopefully with the more expensive one you would hope that you get a better one. The one I had my eye on is steel not cast and apparently is glued to the rubber much better and is only 50 bucks more. All you can do is hope it's better I guess.

    Right now though I think I might just do what dodge82273 said and find TDC remark it, retime it and run it and keep an eye on it for now until I get more info on a descent one.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline Canadian country boy

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #138 on: June 7, 2020, 10:50:14 pm »
    As for the seal, try to feel it with your fingers. Is it still pliable? If it is, leave it, if not, replace it. A hook will work also. Sometimes you might need to tap it with a screwdriver or chisel to get a hook on it good. Don't worry about the cover as long as you don't strike it hard. A seal doesnt require that much force to get a bite on it. All it would need if it is stubborn is just multiple firm taps on the edge of the seal and it will come out. Easier if you have a hoist for sure.
    Dodge boys have more fun!  Get with the adult toys from Dodge!
    '79 Macho Power Wagon.

    I support American made  🇺🇸

    Love Jesus with all your heart. Satan is the greatest deceiver.

    TRUTH IS NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY.
    STOP GLOBALIZATION!!! STOP THE UNITED NATIONS!!! #WEDONOTCONCENT

    Offline SuperBurban

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #139 on: June 7, 2020, 11:09:29 pm »
    The early seals were installed from the inside of the timing cover. It normally is replaced with the new style. I'm thinking the change was 75, so you should be ok Daryl, but if it does not want to come out the front, do not destroy the timing cover trying to force it out.
    77 W200, 360/727/NP203/D44HD/D60 (Wifes Toy)
    77 M887- 318/727/NP203 D44HD/D60
    78/86 Ramcharger.  360/727/NP203 D44/9&1/4
    85/89/90 D150/W250 5.9TBI/435/241 D44HD/D60HD
    85 W350 360/727/241 D44HD/D60
    97 B3500 5.9MPFI/518 D60HD
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    projects:
    85 Country Coach RV, 5.9 Cummins/TH475,GV od,US gear Exhaust brake,D70HD (4 wheel disk brakes, 10 lug 19.5 rims.

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #140 on: June 8, 2020, 12:05:04 am »
    Couldn't you use one of these?

    https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/harmonic-balancers/make/dodge/engine-size/5-2l-318/engine-family/mopar-small-block-la

    Yes those are the ones I was looking at. I will do a little research on them and try and get a decent one. Regardless of it being a performance one,if that's what it takes to get a decent one I don't mind spending the money and doing it once. I will check the seal and use my best judgment. I

    I got bit in the but when I was 18 buying a used fan blade from a junk yard. Was reving the engine and a blade flew off and then the shaft on the water pump broke and the rest of the  fan chewed through my radiator like butter. A little shy of junk yard parts. You all know the whole front driveshaft thing so not wanting to have this balancer rebuilt.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline Canadian country boy

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #141 on: June 8, 2020, 12:39:52 am »
    Dodge boys have more fun!  Get with the adult toys from Dodge!
    '79 Macho Power Wagon.

    I support American made  🇺🇸

    Love Jesus with all your heart. Satan is the greatest deceiver.

    TRUTH IS NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY.
    STOP GLOBALIZATION!!! STOP THE UNITED NATIONS!!! #WEDONOTCONCENT

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #142 on: June 8, 2020, 01:35:10 am »
    o.k. do it , don't over think it . You should be able to take the od of the new seal LOOK at the old one and SEE if its a one way as George mentioned , or its the later either way . One way will have a LIP of aluminum cover partly covering the metal of the seal , preventing its removal from the outside / front . just pry the old one out , evenly start the new one in . ounce its started straight , a small ball peen hammer tapping all around it til its almost flush , put some clean grease IN the seals lips before ya tap it in . expect it to seep .
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Online Jeffy45

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #143 on: June 8, 2020, 04:47:58 am »
    If ya do get this one ,let me know how it works out?
    1988 Ramcharger LE 150 318 TBI 727 non-lockup.                   
           " If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it,   
                    he is obligated to do so"                                                   
                                                                 - Thomas Jefferson

    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #144 on: June 8, 2020, 10:13:33 am »
    If ya do get this one ,let me know how it works out?

    I have that one. Bought one 10 years ago when they cost $29! Working very well for me.
    '85 W150 SB, 408 stroker, Magnum manifolds, Performer RPM, 670 Truck Avenger, HEI ignition, Auburn LSD 9.25 and '82 D44 (non-CAD) with 3.55/3.54,  NV4500/NP241

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #145 on: June 8, 2020, 12:14:12 pm »
    Cool, good to know 👍
    1988 Ramcharger LE 150 318 TBI 727 non-lockup.                   
           " If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it,   
                    he is obligated to do so"                                                   
                                                                 - Thomas Jefferson

    Offline Canadian country boy

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #146 on: June 8, 2020, 11:37:10 pm »
    If ya do get this one ,let me know how it works out?
    Mancini Racing is cheaper 😉
    Dodge boys have more fun!  Get with the adult toys from Dodge!
    '79 Macho Power Wagon.

    I support American made  🇺🇸

    Love Jesus with all your heart. Satan is the greatest deceiver.

    TRUTH IS NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY.
    STOP GLOBALIZATION!!! STOP THE UNITED NATIONS!!! #WEDONOTCONCENT

    Online Jeffy45

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #147 on: June 9, 2020, 03:00:21 am »
    The good thing about summit is free shipping, and they will pay to ship it back if there is a problem.
    1988 Ramcharger LE 150 318 TBI 727 non-lockup.                   
           " If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it,   
                    he is obligated to do so"                                                   
                                                                 - Thomas Jefferson

    Offline Canadian country boy

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #148 on: June 9, 2020, 09:48:24 am »
    True. 4WP is the same way. Mancini Racing is still a great supplier.
    Dodge boys have more fun!  Get with the adult toys from Dodge!
    '79 Macho Power Wagon.

    I support American made  🇺🇸

    Love Jesus with all your heart. Satan is the greatest deceiver.

    TRUTH IS NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY.
    STOP GLOBALIZATION!!! STOP THE UNITED NATIONS!!! #WEDONOTCONCENT

    Offline texxas

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #149 on: June 9, 2020, 10:14:54 am »
    I just bought one of these balancers from Summit on May 26
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pbb-pb1004n
    I have about 50 miles on it, running around for break in miles, after breaking in the flat tappet cam. Works great so far and fit just like the original with all the stock parts. I did have to use a harmonic balancer installer. Fit was tight on the crank and since I was using a new crank and balancer I would rather be safe than sorry.