Author Topic: Timing 318 2 barrel  (Read 5781 times)

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Offline daryl78powerwagon

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Timing 318 2 barrel
« on: April 7, 2020, 09:17:36 pm »
My son has a 1978 dodge w150 with 318 2 barrel 727 transmission fully stock no mods except cherry bombs and all emissions have been removed.

Looking at the timing and did a few readings. Trying to learn it myself and teach my son at the same time.

I have an Innova timing light with tachometer and advance built in. I also have a set of vacuum and pressure gauges.

I did look for a tag on the dizzy and I did not find one. But there are some very faint numbers written on the side I can only make out the #29.

We took out the #1 spark plug and used a long screwdriver to find tdc and the harmonic balancer is exactly at 0 on the timing marks at tdc.

We noticed that the new spark plug looked white so its evident its been running hot or lean. Will also be adjusting the carb through this.

Removed the vacuum advance tube and plugged it.

First reading I took the rpm was 890 and the initial timing was 17*btdc.

We now have the dizzy moved to 12* btdc at idle . Truck running good idle down to 785 rpm.

Then with the Truck at 2580 rpm and the gun says it's at 21* btdc. Is this where it should be? I keep reading total timing should be around 35* btdc.

I went ahead and hooked the vacuum advance back up and with the truck at 2900 rpm the timing gun says its at 41* btdc. This must be too much vacuum advance or too much initial timing.


I found a pdf online specifically for older Mopar engines. The pdf file link is below and this is the only way I could copy it to here. I haven't followed the directions completely yet as I just found it and want to study it and try it. I am hoping someone will chime in and let me know if this is indeed what we are suppose to do and am I right in hooking the vacuum advance up and coming up with (total timing)? of 41* btdc is too much.

https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/review?uri=urn%3Aaaid%3Ascds%3AUS%3Acae2bf81-5a55-4744-95a3-ea2aaaed069d


After you read it, down on the bottom there is an example of having the total timing at 42* which is kinda where we are. It then gives you several options to lower the total timing to the 35* btdc. One is to simply lower the initial timing. The second is to actually adjust the vacuum advance using a 3/32 allen wrench into the nipple of the vacuum advance. Now before I go doing this I hope to hear from the pros and see if we are heading down right path.

Trying to make sure this thing is set so we don't burn a hole in the pistons.

I appreciate all of your input.

Thanks
D


1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

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    Offline modelcitizen

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #1 on: April 7, 2020, 09:28:47 pm »
    1-not going to burn a hole in a piston on that engine. You actually retarded the timing from 17 degrees to where you have it now. Adjust it to 12degrees and drive it,like i suggested in my last post. See if it'll run on 87 octane at that setting.
    My 84 with 177k does,yours will too . These are mass produced engines,not high performance powerplants and a degree of timing on vacuum advance one way or the other won't amount to a lot of difference.
    2- the edge of detonation/pinging will/should be your timing figure. No two engines the same.

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #2 on: April 8, 2020, 03:42:24 am »
    if you have a single pick up type dizzy ( which I believe you do ) , directly under the plate in the dizzy is a mechanical ignition advance system  , it operates by use of 2 small springs and a set of wieghts mounted on a pivot point . As your rpms come UP , those weights get spun faster and overcome the "return" springs , the upper part of the shaft has slots and is driven by 2 dowel pins on those weights as they move outward from centrifugal force , the slots cause the rotor end of the shaft to rotate ahead of the lower screwdriver end of the shaft , this is your mechanical advance .  SO yes as you raise the rpm's you advance the timing in that way . at idle this is called "base" timing , its where YOU have moved/set the whole dizzy . Rpms come up mech advance advances it . The plate on which the pick up is mounted is really 2 plates , the pick up is screwed to a moveable upper 1/2 and attached to the vacume advance can's actuator arm . that can is also spring loaded , vac pulls against that spring , at idle you have HIGH vacume the arm is pulled by a diafram inside the can and advances ( vac advance ) when you first depress the gas , the eng vac drops , the internial spring returns the advance can's are , it retards the timing ( no ping) as the engine reaches the desired gas pedal's rpm the vacume again rises and the can advances the timing ( less load more advance ) couple this advance with the fly weights advance and you "base" timing you have total timing advance . this is why you disco'ed the vac can's hose while you set the "base" 10-15 degress advance ...  the photo is from a 1968 Motor's manual the contact set shown has been replaced by the "pick up" other wise the operation is the same .... put it on a P/C and click on it :)
    « Last Edit: April 8, 2020, 03:48:02 am by dodge82273 »
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #3 on: April 8, 2020, 07:57:05 am »
    Very good description. I understood the jist of the weights and vacuum advance but this is a really good description.

    So with the initial/base set at 12btdc it's OK that the timing is 21btdc with the vacuum disconnected at 2900 rpm because this isn't my total timing of 35 that I keep reading about. The 21btdc is what my mechanical advance is doing. So it's advancing it 9* from base timing.

    With base timing at 12btdc Going to take it for a drive later today on the freeway and see if it pings. But before I do that should I adjust the carb mixture screws first and if I do should the air cleaner be on? Or does the air filter not obstruct it enough?
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #4 on: April 8, 2020, 08:01:15 am »
    Ballpark figure is total mechanical timing is good on a 318 about 35 degrees at 3000 rpm. ideally on a truck the timing advance is slower (in some cars full advance is in by 2000-2500). Vacuum can will add another 10-15 depending on design, but since it is vacuum dependent, it isn't too much as it'll back off when needed.

    You might need another distributor or get this one adjusted if you want it ideally timed. It's not hard to even do it yourself if you understand how it works as long as you're careful.
    '85 W150 SB, 408 stroker, Magnum manifolds, Performer RPM, 670 Truck Avenger, HEI ignition, Auburn LSD 9.25 and '82 D44 (non-CAD) with 3.55/3.54,  NV4500/NP241

    Offline DODGEBOYS

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #5 on: April 8, 2020, 11:14:35 am »
    the correct timing procedure should be , set timing to 10* btdc , now with vacuum gauge set base idle  [700-750] and idle jets for MAX vacuum and smooth idle , now with a helper put it in gear and bring the rpm,s  up to 1500 to 1800 and advance the timing till it pings , back it down till it stops pinging , shut it off try a restart , if it fires right up your done with timing reset set the idles and idles screws , if it dont , back the timing down a little more till it fires up without struggling , then reset your idle and idle screws , take it for a ride and see how it runs
    put your truck info HERE
    MOPAR TO YA!!!!!! AARON HOWORD TOWNSEND / SLANTEDMIND---GOD BLESSDODGEBOYS FSM STORE
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    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #6 on: April 8, 2020, 11:58:52 am »
    I will do that exactly. Thanks for that. I might replace the distributor just cause. I am sure I will get ripped for that but oh well. They are cheap so why not. This one looks like the original and all the other ignition stuff is new.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline DODGEBOYS

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #7 on: April 8, 2020, 12:15:15 pm »
    on FB there is a guy that does an AWESOME job on Dist for dodges - link below if you have FB

    https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=331984517742209&ref=br_rs
    put your truck info HERE
    MOPAR TO YA!!!!!! AARON HOWORD TOWNSEND / SLANTEDMIND---GOD BLESSDODGEBOYS FSM STORE
    [email protected]
    former Parts Mgr & A1 Tech @ Pete's Chrysler -Plymouth
    DO NOT use the site IM,s to contact me  l have them turned OFF

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #8 on: April 8, 2020, 12:18:31 pm »
    I will look at that. Question do I adjust the adle screws with or without the air cleaner on?
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #9 on: April 8, 2020, 03:20:44 pm »
    should not matter .    rip rip replace dizzy ?  take it out clean and lube , better you than some low paid foreign factory worker .............  look where ever rotor is pointin when you take it out , put it back same way DO NOT crank the motor with it OUT done like that , onna a dodge V8 it only goes RIGHT or 180' WRONG , a screwdriver slot ..... can't be a little off... please try not to be TOO precise and your auto will run well .... some times folks try to make a crude thing EXACT , those will fail ...   
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Offline Master Gunner

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #10 on: April 8, 2020, 04:53:06 pm »
    First of all, some very good advice here, now the 35* total advance that people are talking about is total mechanical advance. 21*total mechanical is way low even for a smogger motor. You may find some more timing in you distributor, check how heavy the springs are. In the performance world we generally shoot for 35*-38* all in at around 2100-2200, but in the truck world 3000 is more realistic. Vacuum advance will do what it will do, and really don't need to do much with it.
    The Mopar Performance engine book has you set the total timing, and then let the initial fall where it may.
    My 73 road runner with a 440 is 15*initial and 37* all in, starts right now.  The reason for low initial timing was an attempt to lower emissions. Just play with it and run as much initial as you can without pinging.

    Have fun,
    Mark 
    1999 Dodge 3500 CTD 4x4
    1987 Dodge RC 318 4x4
    1973 Plymouth Road Runner 440+6

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #11 on: April 8, 2020, 07:31:34 pm »
    I took the advice of dodgeboys and contacted a guy on Facebook for Mopar distributors. I told him the numbers we have and he said the dizzy sounds like it needs to be recurved. I am sending him pics of the spark plugs and he gave me some more homework to do so he has the numbers he needs. He said the same thing you said. The mechanical advance is way low for what it should be. Once I get home the test numbers he wants he will let me know in fact if the dizzy is off.

    He rebuilds them and offers a send in service for 125 or  he can build one from scratch for 250.

    So we shall see what I come up with but I have a feeling it's in need of repair or replace.

    Everyone is steering me away from these cheap box store ones and I know all to well that those parts are hit or miss at best.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #12 on: April 8, 2020, 08:18:05 pm »
    Whatever you do, don't get a box-store rebuild. Those are garbage and not "rebuilt"
    '85 W150 SB, 408 stroker, Magnum manifolds, Performer RPM, 670 Truck Avenger, HEI ignition, Auburn LSD 9.25 and '82 D44 (non-CAD) with 3.55/3.54,  NV4500/NP241

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #13 on: April 8, 2020, 08:26:39 pm »
    Was looking at a new one part number ch04 specter performance I think. But it would be a Chinese one I am sure.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #14 on: April 8, 2020, 09:27:37 pm »
     take the thing out , take it apart , clean it , lube it and put it back together WAY before you buy a rebuilt ...
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Offline modelcitizen

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #15 on: April 8, 2020, 10:31:37 pm »
    take the thing out , take it apart , clean it , lube it and put it back together WAY before you buy a rebuilt ...

    ^^^^^this! Eff parts store remans. A thorough cleaning and removing 40+year old grease that has been cooked over time into dried up sticky crud keeping centrifugal and vacuum advance from working smoothly and fully will do wonders for restoring correct ignition curve.

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #16 on: April 8, 2020, 10:36:26 pm »
    After talking to that guy he said mine likely is a box store rebuild. He said there would be paint dots in it if it is and sure enough there is. So I likely have one of those pos box store rebuilt in there now. So the question is do you still try and clean it up or start with a brand new Chinese one?
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #17 on: April 9, 2020, 03:24:49 am »
    better you doing it than a low paid Chinese girl in a slave factory , just sit at a desk .. the thing is simple , and beyond that , you worried over nothing , me I'd leave the thing alone , good 'nuff . But then I'm not racing my pick up truck , and a few degrees more or less FULL ADVANCE will not matter .
    its NOT what made your plugs melt , too much advance did that ..........
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #18 on: April 9, 2020, 07:40:45 am »
    Ok, I will take it apart if that's all it is is lubing it. Wasn't sure if the springs would need replaced or something else to warrant getting a brand new one. Well lube it and clean it up this weekend and see what we have.
    Thanks
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #19 on: April 9, 2020, 08:32:00 am »
    you can use the pix of the points one I posted to see where the clips are .. like under the felt oiling plug ... your pick up screws where they show the contact set is about the difference ... ounce apart and cleaned you can check the shaft/bushings in housing for excessive side play .. in any case you have zip to loose .... except the time , which gets replaced by the experience.... 
    « Last Edit: April 9, 2020, 08:34:10 am by dodge82273 »
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Offline Master Gunner

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #20 on: April 10, 2020, 07:45:14 am »
    Firecore makes a very good performance distributor that is fully adjustable for mechanical advance, for about $170. https://www.manciniracing.com/maravaadeldi2.html
    Even with today's crappy gas, you should still be able to run about 30* total mechanical advance, if not you're just giving away free power.

    Mark
    « Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 07:59:15 am by Master Gunner »
    1999 Dodge 3500 CTD 4x4
    1987 Dodge RC 318 4x4
    1973 Plymouth Road Runner 440+6

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #21 on: April 10, 2020, 09:55:50 am »
    power ? as in acceleration ? that's when the vacume can has retarded so you are not getting 30* s  only wound up on the highway with the go pedal  under cruse pressure will it get the full 30*   OR sitting there in neutral with your timming light flashing wound up under NO load ....  ;)  I'm betting his dizzy would give more advance if he reved it more and held it there , something he don't need to do BTW ..so at most a lighter spring on the weight/s clean it first
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Offline Master Gunner

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #22 on: April 10, 2020, 02:35:01 pm »
    OK, ignition 101
    The vacuum can cannot retard timing, only advance it under high vacuum conditions, such as steady cruise. Total advance is base timing plus mechanical plus vacuum advance. This can be as high as 46-48*, since with high vacuum there is not much load on the engine. Under heavy load or acceleration, there is no vacuum, there fore no vacuum advance. There is still your base timing and mechanical advance, so under your high load you will still have 30-35* advance depending what's in the distributor.
    You can believe me or not, that's up to you, but it's in black and white in the mopar performance engine books, and other books on ignition performance.

    Mark
    « Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 03:12:05 pm by Master Gunner »
    1999 Dodge 3500 CTD 4x4
    1987 Dodge RC 318 4x4
    1973 Plymouth Road Runner 440+6

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #23 on: April 10, 2020, 04:54:25 pm »
    the vac can has a spring fighting the vacume diaframe standing still in N engine reved up has vac high , dizzy advances , accelerate or pull up hill , heavy load , vac drops ( throttle open / rpms down ) spring pulls dizzy back to retard ( no ping ) , engine comes up to rpm ( load lessens ) vac increases , dizzy advances ... vacume advance , BUT no/low vac it returns by the spring ..... ( its why you remove the vac line when you set "base" timing at idle , otherwise the vac would be advancing it )  call it understanding how 101 works ?  the vac can does retard timing when it losses vacume .... that is its purpose ..... retard it under load so it don't burn up spark plugs and make holes in pistons ..
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Offline Master Gunner

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #24 on: April 10, 2020, 05:35:28 pm »
    Alright, I see where you're going. However the vacuum can does not retard timing, all it can do is go to zero under heavy load. Say we have 12* initial and 20* mechanical all in at 3000 rpm. Under acceleration we would have 32* advance. Now at cruise speed 3000 rpm, we still have our 32* (initial + centrifugal) but now that we're at part throttle we now have vacuum and that adds whatever the can is set for, say 12*. We now have 42* total timing. If you hit the gas again you lose the vacuum advance but do not retard the timing.

    To retard the timing you take timing away from what you have in your initial (12* to 6*) or your centrifugal (20* to 18*). Vacuum advance is only there for greater efficiency under light load. Again, read the mopar performance engine manual, you don't have to take just my word for it, but maybe the engineers who built these engines.

    Mark

    1999 Dodge 3500 CTD 4x4
    1987 Dodge RC 318 4x4
    1973 Plymouth Road Runner 440+6

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #25 on: April 10, 2020, 09:30:00 pm »
    Took the dizzy out and cleaned it. Weights seemed loose on the pegs, like the holes on the weights are too big slightly. They wiggle.

    Going to try it again.

    Just so I understand since the truck has no load it would be normal to see a total advance of say 40ish unless it's in drive with load. Going to start it at 12* and adjust it from there with it in drive at 1800 rpm like dodgeboys said. Then I will take it for a spin. Just so I know, since I have not heard any pings before it actually sounds like a ping? I should have taken a Pic of the dizzy apart but man I was frustrated.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #26 on: April 10, 2020, 09:33:09 pm »
    the correct timing procedure should be , set timing to 10* btdc , now with vacuum gauge set base idle  [700-750] and idle jets for MAX vacuum and smooth idle , now with a helper put it in gear and bring the rpm,s  up to 1500 to 1800 and advance the timing till it pings , back it down till it stops pinging , shut it off try a restart , if it fires right up your done with timing reset set the idles and idles screws , if it dont , back the timing down a little more till it fires up without struggling , then reset your idle and idle screws , take it for a ride and see how it runs

    Before I do this am I suppose to have the vacuum advance unplugged?

    Also where is the vacuum advance suppose to be plugged in when I am done, the carb or the manifold? Right now it's on the carb on the side by the choke.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline Canadian country boy

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #27 on: April 10, 2020, 10:29:54 pm »
    Yes, unplug your vacuum line from the dizzy before you time it. What carb do you have? Either way, you want to use the highest port you can find. If it's a Holley, it's on the side of the metering block and if it's a Carter/Edelbrock it's the highest port in the front on the passenger side and if it's anything else then look for the highest port. The high ports are "timed vacuum" and the low ports are manifold vacuum. Timed is what the dizzy wants.  If you went manifold vacuum then you would be full advanced at idle. Also elevations and fuel octane levels varies all over North America. What works for someone in one region doesn't work in another. I like to set it to the point in which it will run and then take it out for a drive and tune it by driving it and keep making adjustments until it stopped pinging and power levels are good, then I throw a gun on it to see where I'm at and fine tune it from there if need be.
    « Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 11:01:25 pm by Canadian country boy »
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    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #28 on: April 10, 2020, 10:51:00 pm »
    I have the stock 2 barrell. Looks like it came off a car from an Indiana Jones movie. Ha lol.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline Canadian country boy

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #29 on: April 10, 2020, 10:55:07 pm »
    Sorry, right, that's what you said earlier in your post. Just look for the highest port and that's the one you want.
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    Offline Canadian country boy

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #30 on: April 10, 2020, 10:59:07 pm »
    Plus you still want to unplug your vacuum line from the dizzy with the 2bbl
    Dodge boys have more fun!  Get with the adult toys from Dodge!
    '79 Macho Power Wagon.

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    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #31 on: April 10, 2020, 11:11:03 pm »
    Cool thanks. Gunna have to replace the valve cover gaskets first again. Went to remove a few spark plugs and there is quite a bit of oil around the plugs where they covers are dripping. Gunna try the real thick cork/rubber ones this time. May have to just silicone the dang things on. Used the rubber coated fiber ones last time.
     
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline Canadian country boy

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #32 on: April 10, 2020, 11:19:17 pm »
    Cork is horrible but it also could be from old valve covers as they deform over the years because people like to crank down on them all the time. If they are the original style then they are just made out of tin. You might want to make sure all around the bolt holes are flat and the entire perimeter is flat and level or buy thick aluminum covers. Never crank down tight on valve covers, just sinch them tight. Maybe even use a bit of Locktite. 
    Dodge boys have more fun!  Get with the adult toys from Dodge!
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    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #33 on: April 11, 2020, 04:18:24 am »
    Alright, I see where you're going. However the vacuum can does not retard timing, all it can do is go to zero under heavy load. Say we have 12* initial and 20* mechanical all in at 3000 rpm. Under acceleration we would have 32* advance. Now at cruise speed 3000 rpm, we still have our 32* (initial + centrifugal) but now that we're at part throttle we now have vacuum and that adds whatever the can is set for, say 12*. We now have 42* total timing. If you hit the gas again you lose the vacuum advance but do not retard the timing.

    To retard the timing you take timing away from what you have in your initial (12* to 6*) or your centrifugal (20* to 18*). Vacuum advance is only there for greater efficiency under light load. Again, read the mopar performance engine manual, you don't have to take just my word for it, but maybe the engineers who built these engines.

    Mark
    what goes up must come down , it advances timming and it returns, or retards, timming  but never less than your base .. I thought that was understood . NO it don't put your timming at 10' atdc ....   

    when the spring returns it , the timing is moving in the retard direction , nothing in the fly weights or the vac can can move below the base timming where you lock the dizzy down which should wind up around 12 BTDC (or advanced ).. the vac is to allow more advance while allowing less advance under low vac conditions there fore less preignittion , I never meant it would bring the base timming below what YOU set it for , just that it moves from vac advanced back ,when vacume drops , which is to say , it retards it, but you don't have to take my word for it either .. LOL

     yeah vac hoes sounds like the right place on carb , and yes pull it off and plug hole in carb while setting base timming . ping sounds like marbles in the engine ? put it in a high /top gear at a too slow speed , and step on gas ( load the heck outta it ) listen for marbles  did you find rust or goo in the dizzy? does the plate the pick up mounts to move ?
    « Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 05:35:47 am by dodge82273 »
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #34 on: April 11, 2020, 07:51:13 am »
    I wouldn't say goo or rust just grime. Dirt built up and dried maybe like metal dust kinda that was baked on the surfaces. Maybe like someone sprayed it and it baked on. The plate does move but the weights are what stood out. Clearly had too much play in the pins and pin holes for the weights. Might just go get one of those brand new box store ones. We had put one on before when we thought the dizzy was screaming and it seemed like a decent peice. Can't be worse then what I have. Also the reviews on it every where I looked seemed good. Might not last as long as an original but can't go spending a ton on a racing one. I was looking at that spectra ch04 on summit and Amazon that both have quite a few reviews to read so might just try it for the 65 bucks.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #35 on: April 11, 2020, 09:04:26 am »
    try the one you have first . unless your building a racing truck ( ????) you may be suprized ... loose on the pins would only be bad if you get alot of fluctuation , which I highly doubt ... If you still have it available , put a vacume
    ( suck) on the vac can , see if the arm moves the pick up plate .... I bet the one you have IS a rebuilt ...
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
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    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #36 on: April 11, 2020, 09:31:34 am »
    Gunna try it today and see how it does. I did put vacuum on the can it does move freely. If it jumps around on the timing will probably go get one from orielys just to see. I am sue the one I have is a rebuilt one.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #37 on: April 11, 2020, 09:34:23 am »
    Quick question, I need the breather that is on the passenger side valve cover. Can I get the one that doesn't have the hose to the air cleaner? I am sure it sucks in air from the pcv side and goes to the air cleaner so it's somewhat clean but doesn't the air cleaner suck from it kinda causing it to loose a tad bit of suction from the pcv side. Or is all that just a personal preference thing?
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline Master Gunner

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #38 on: April 11, 2020, 10:00:13 am »
    Not to ignite this again, but whether you rebuild your own dizzy, or buy a reman, you need to know how much advance is built into it. On a stock or reman diz the mechanical advance plate should have a number stamped on it, say 10 for example. You double this to get total mechanical advance, in this case 20*. You need to know this because it determines how much initial timing you can set, in this example no more than 13-14* for a total of 33-34* in a Mopar small block. This is not adjustable and you can't change it.
    Any more you run a good chance of detonation (pinging) which will destroy the engine over time, sometimes quite spectacularly. Again this would be the max you would want to have in a good running engine, but they're all different, so you have to play with it to find the sweet spot.
    1999 Dodge 3500 CTD 4x4
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    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #39 on: April 11, 2020, 12:07:21 pm »
    Quick question, I need the breather that is on the passenger side valve cover. Can I get the one that doesn't have the hose to the air cleaner? I am sure it sucks in air from the pcv side and goes to the air cleaner so it's somewhat clean but doesn't the air cleaner suck from it kinda causing it to loose a tad bit of suction from the pcv side. Or is all that just a personal preference thing?
      your right , the idea is to provide cleaned air to the vent / breather . your obsessing . The vacume created inside the intake is much higher than at the breather's nipple on the air filter , place your vacume gauge there and see ... still concerned ? flip the air filter's cover over ...   

     timming the rotor is moved by fly wieghts toward advance x number of degrees by amount of rpm applied
     the vacume can moves the pick up plate toward advance x number of degrees by amount of vacume applied
    the base timming is set  toward advance by x number of degrees , YOU apply by turning the whole dizzy . 
     all 3 combined are the total advance , 2 change while you drive 1 does not .  pretty simple

     NOW any of them with a puter , it does the figgerin ... using sensors ...  the little box on the firewall ain't a computer . its a transistorized ignition system , all it did was take the place of a mechanical wear item called points / actually 2 sets of points ... it provides that much dwell ....
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Offline Jeffy45

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #40 on: April 12, 2020, 04:56:16 am »
    This is the chinese crap that took the place of the prestolite kits, that were mostly all bought up about two years ago......
    « Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 05:02:30 am by Jeffy45 »
    1988 Ramcharger LE 150 318 TBI 727 non-lockup.                   
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    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #41 on: April 26, 2020, 11:56:39 am »
    I'm back. The valve covers were leaking way to bad to do the timing so we ordered new covers and put th on.

    Getting back to the timing. Took out the old dizzy and it seems to be OK now that I got a better look at it. Put it back in and have the vacuum advance unplugged with the initial timing set at 10 we reved the motor to 3600rpm and the absolute highest btdc was 22 on the gun even revving paste 3600 to about 3700 and a bit more. So either the secondary heavy spring  isn't engaging or this is this distributors max mechanical advance timing. I am suppose to be at 35btdc on mechanical and as much as 50btdc with the vacuum advance per some book specs I read for 89 and prior LA engine with iron heads.
    So I assume you would have open the stops on the mechanical advance to allow the advance to open more or just get a new dizzy and try that. Thoughts on what I should do or if I am dead wrong on what's happening.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #42 on: April 26, 2020, 12:55:50 pm »
    We changed the distributor out to a new spectra premium ch04 just to see. Set the distributor to 10 initial and at 3600rpm it maxed out to 33btdc. We adjusted it to 35btdc and the initial is at 11 now. We locked it down and adjusted the idle to about 750 to 780ish. I adjust the idle screws, was running a little rich.

    However I hooked up the vacuum advance and the timing jumped to 22btdc and the idle jumped to 850 rpm. So this tells me the vacuum advance is kicking in at idle. It was my thought that it shouldn't kick in while idling or am I wrong? I am pretty sure the vacuum advance on this can be adjusted via an Allen wrench on the can. Is it right that the vacuum advance kicks in at idle? 22btdc at idle is high. Otherwise the mechanical seems dead on.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #43 on: April 26, 2020, 01:50:20 pm »
    We changed the distributor out to a new spectra premium ch04 just to see. Set the distributor to 10 initial and at 3600rpm it maxed out to 33btdc. We adjusted it to 35btdc and the initial is at 11 now. We locked it down and adjusted the idle to about 750 to 780ish. I adjust the idle screws, was running a little rich.

    However I hooked up the vacuum advance and the timing jumped to 22btdc and the idle jumped to 850 rpm. So this tells me the vacuum advance is kicking in at idle. It was my thought that it shouldn't kick in while idling or am I wrong? I am pretty sure the vacuum advance on this can be adjusted via an Allen wrench on the can. Is it right that the vacuum advance kicks in at idle? 22btdc at idle is high. Otherwise the mechanical seems dead on.

    In the past, 40+ years ago, they'd use manifold vacuum to the advance. That was fine in the pre-emissions era. It didn't matter if you had advance at idle because there was no load on the engine. And when you stepped on the accelerator, the plates would open and you'd lose vacuum and the advance would go away.

    Later, they changed to ported vacuum for emissions and other benefits. This is the vacuum created by a venturi-type effect above the carb throttle plates. At idle, there is minimal/no flow and therefore no vacuum in this area and you get no advance. Then when you accelerate, as the engine uses more air, you get more ported vacuum created.

    So to answer your question - if you're using commonly-recommended ported vacuum, you should have very little or no suction in the hose to the distributor at idle and minimal or no extra advance given. You should check to see where you connected the vacuum line. Do not adjust the vacuum advance canister.

    You could have a small amount of advance in the ported line however, and this is why you're supposed to disconnect the hose when setting the timing. If you have a vacuum gauge you can measure it.
    '85 W150 SB, 408 stroker, Magnum manifolds, Performer RPM, 670 Truck Avenger, HEI ignition, Auburn LSD 9.25 and '82 D44 (non-CAD) with 3.55/3.54,  NV4500/NP241

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #44 on: April 26, 2020, 02:16:26 pm »
    I think it is hooked up to ported. It's on the side of the carb above the throttle blades. However I don't know if that tube goes down under the blades with in the carb. This is the carb  and this is roughly where the vacuum is at on idle. It is a 78 but all the emissions has been removed.

    So if this is a proted vacuum port then why the high advance at idle?
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #45 on: April 26, 2020, 02:28:01 pm »
    you have 10" at idle. That seems a high for ported (I'd expect less than 5), but low for manifold. Hook your gauge to a port you think is manifold sourced. Compare vacuum readings. I'd expect about 20" for a manifold vacuum (could be less for a lopey cam).

    if this really is ported vacuum, I'd check your throttle plates and make sure they're closed all the way (check accelerator attachment to carb and idle adjustment).
    '85 W150 SB, 408 stroker, Magnum manifolds, Performer RPM, 670 Truck Avenger, HEI ignition, Auburn LSD 9.25 and '82 D44 (non-CAD) with 3.55/3.54,  NV4500/NP241

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #46 on: April 26, 2020, 02:54:53 pm »
    First Pic is at idle on the carb port.

    Second is at idle on the manifold nipple with several other vacuum ports.

    The plates look closed. There is a little hole drilled into each plate. You can see a dribble of gas going into the carb.
    The idle is set around 800rpm in park. All of these readings are in park.

    I went ahead and hooked the dizzy up to manifold vacuum on the same nipple as the vacuum Gauge just to see. The timing jumped up to 36btdc and the idle went up about 50 to 100rpm. So that tells me the vacuum advance has the ability to add well past 30 degrees which seems like alot.
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #47 on: April 26, 2020, 04:07:41 pm »
    you had / have it hooked to the port on the carb that IS for the distributor , adjust your idle screw to where you want it and your done . As doc said , the vacume advance "goes away" when you step on the gas , I just said it retards rather than goes away , that made for confusion as the can never goes less than your 11' static you set ... the number may seem high at that port because of the age of the design , newer ones may be less and we get use to them ... from what I see on your gauge , and what you write , you have a good one . That is the age carb I've installed on her 87 when I removed the feed-back carb they are dependable units ..   
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"
    93w350 6 tire CC 60 c/a flat bed dump

    Offline daryl78powerwagon

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #48 on: April 26, 2020, 04:31:54 pm »
    Been reading a little more about vacuum advance and am understanding it a bit more. From what I have read it's actually ideal to have more advance at idle I guess. Since this is how they ran before emissions and since this one has no emissions then I guess we are good. Seems to run real good. Gunna take it for a drive tonight. It's too hot here right now its 102 degrees here in Gilbert AZ today.

    Also just so I know for sure what we were finding with the old dizzy only making 22*btdc at full mechanical 4000rpm shows that the old dizzy was in fact bad or at least configured wrong for what is typical for our 318?
    « Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 04:43:10 pm by daryl78powerwagon »
    1978 w150 318/ 727/ np203/ d44/ 9.25 with a/c

    Offline SuperBurban

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    Re: Timing 318 2 barrel
    « Reply #49 on: April 26, 2020, 08:20:00 pm »
    Many carbs from the later 70's, have the port right above the throttle plates, to give the vacuum advance as soon as the plates are opening. drop your throttle down to 700 RPM, and see if the vacuum drops. If you still have the diagram under the hood, see if it shows an OSAC valve between the carb, and dist. It was used to delay the advance a bit when the throttle was opened, to give better drive ability. IIRC, the valve was mounted on the rear of the aircleaner.
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