Author Topic: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker  (Read 1189 times)

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Offline rc12102

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Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
« on: July 9, 2020, 08:37:45 pm »
Block cleaned up at .040 over and I'll be ordering a SCAT rotating assembly with a (likely) 230/234 110 lsa Hughes hyd roller cam. 1 5/8 headers to dual 2.25 exhaust, 4.10 gears and OD trans. Need to keep it on 91 octane and there are quite a few options for cylinder heads (Speedmaster, Edelbrock, trick flow) with the main differences (other than quality) being slight differences on the exhaust valve size and advertised runner cfm.

Trick flow seems to be top of the line but is it worth it for a non race/strip truck? I hear the speedmaster/PCE need a lot of work and may not end up being economical after factoring in machining. What are people happy with?
1986 RC 150 Royal SE 4x4 360
3/4 ton axles; soon to be 408/a518

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    Offline neil4224

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #1 on: July 10, 2020, 08:06:59 am »
    Edelbrocks I have heard are the way to go for out of the box type performance that is not too extreme.  Looks like you have a 4x4 stroker, so you should be plenty happy with those based on what i have read across the internets. Seems like you have done your research as well.  Being that you have a heavy 4wd, no need for full race type stuff.  I believe the trick flows are built more for higher end revs/power not low end torque.   

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    Offline rc12102

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #2 on: July 10, 2020, 11:04:38 am »
      I believe the trick flows are built more for higher end revs/power not low end torque.   

    This is what I've heard as well, what makes them better for high rpm and HP?  The main differences I see are that the (advertised) intake and exhaust runner volumes are a lot higher on the trick flow out of the box.  Intake valves are all 2.02, where TF exhaust valve is 1.57 vs. 1.6-1.62 for the others.  Is it the larger volume runners that make it better for high HP?  Would these hurt low end torque?  Or is it the minor differences in exhaust valves sizes (or all of the above)?

    I can get a pretty good deal on the edelbrocks and that's what I've been leaning towards, but wanted to understand the differences.
    1986 RC 150 Royal SE 4x4 360
    3/4 ton axles; soon to be 408/a518

    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #3 on: July 10, 2020, 12:59:31 pm »
    Can't tell you the difference between those heads, but I am plenty satisfied with ported stock heads for power on mine.
    '85 W150 SB, 408 stroker, Magnum manifolds, Performer RPM, 670 Truck Avenger, HEI ignition, Auburn LSD 9.25 and '82 D44 (non-CAD) with 3.55/3.54,  NV4500/NP241

    Offline rc12102

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #4 on: July 10, 2020, 02:22:18 pm »
    I certainly started out thinking I would use my stock heads, they're 596 castings but I havent had them checked yet and am worried I'd spend enough money on these with new valves, springs and machine work when for a little more i can go with something like the edelbrocks, which I can get for a little more than $1k.  This would also help in upping the compression with less chance of detonation than using the iron heads.

    1986 RC 150 Royal SE 4x4 360
    3/4 ton axles; soon to be 408/a518

    Offline GUT

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #5 on: July 10, 2020, 03:29:17 pm »
    I run Edelbrock on my 408 in a work truck. No complaints. I will say I have been impressed with the torque. However I have no experience with the others, so I cannot compare.
    I know many people who spend money on stockers, only to find out they have hairline cracks, etc.
    One other slight benefit, is weight savings.
    '85 RC                                        


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    Offline KurtfromLaQuinta

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #6 on: July 10, 2020, 05:52:09 pm »
    I replied over here... https://ramchargercentral.com/projects/pc1p's-1993-ramcharger-le-1ton-build/msg3540946/#msg3540946
    I might add... since your going 408, you need more flow than stock. Why would you want to choke the flow of more cubic inches. So as far as using heads that are more "racing", your going bigger cubic inches, you want the flow. Torque gains will come automatically with the stroke..
    For the same reason... why, oh why would you want to choke the exhaust flow with 2 1/4" pipe? 2 1/2" seems small to me.
    Stay away from cast iron heads. Why do you think the manufactures quit using them? To help fight detonation.
    Do what those new car manufactures do. Closed chambered aluminum heads/ "reverse dome" (dished) pistons. No domed pistons! Those stop swirl of the a/f mixture, cause hot spots, therefore detonation. What they effectively did was put the combustion on the piston head and away from the cylinder head.
    It works!
    Back in the old days, when you could get high octane gas easily, domed pistons were no problem.
    Now, unless you want to run race gas on the street... don't build your engine like they did in the 60's.     
    « Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 05:56:08 pm by KurtfromLaQuinta »
    500 c.i.- Scat Crank, Scat Rods, Indy Aluminum heads, Comp XR280HR Cam, Six-Pack, Milodon 8 qt. Pan, 727  (reverse-manual, low band apply, 5 clutch disc, 3 qt. xtra. pan), N.P. 205, Ford 9" rear axle (4:11, 31 spline axles, Detroit Locker, converted/ disc brakes). Dana 44 front (converted/ disc, 4:10, Tru-Trac limited slip). Hydra Boost Brake Booster, Gear Vendors OD. 600+ ft. lbs. of torque

    Offline Jeffy45

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #7 on: July 10, 2020, 06:00:52 pm »
    Your building a stroker. Let it breathe.  And yes like kurt said dont choke the flow💪
    1988 Ramcharger LE 150 318 TBI 727 non-lockup.                   
           " If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it,   
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    Offline KurtfromLaQuinta

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #8 on: July 10, 2020, 06:02:24 pm »
    Your building a stroker. Let it breathe.  And yes like kurt said dont choke the flow💪
    Wow!
    You sound like the news feed of lately.  ;D
    500 c.i.- Scat Crank, Scat Rods, Indy Aluminum heads, Comp XR280HR Cam, Six-Pack, Milodon 8 qt. Pan, 727  (reverse-manual, low band apply, 5 clutch disc, 3 qt. xtra. pan), N.P. 205, Ford 9" rear axle (4:11, 31 spline axles, Detroit Locker, converted/ disc brakes). Dana 44 front (converted/ disc, 4:10, Tru-Trac limited slip). Hydra Boost Brake Booster, Gear Vendors OD. 600+ ft. lbs. of torque

    Offline rc12102

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #9 on: July 10, 2020, 06:29:41 pm »
    I'll respond to what you mentioned in the other thread here.  No smog/emissions to deal with, so no cats on that 2.25 exhaust.  I was able to get the exhaust kit made for the RC for $100 awhile ago, this was also when I was just planning on intake and exhaust rather than now going the whole kit and caboodle with the stroker.  So i can certainly go bigger if that is needed, but thought removing the cats and higher flow mufflers would still work since I'm not revving this to 5k RPM.

    I went through Hughes on most of these specs and it did include dished pistons and the 63cc edelbrock heads.
    1986 RC 150 Royal SE 4x4 360
    3/4 ton axles; soon to be 408/a518

    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #10 on: July 10, 2020, 06:53:43 pm »
    I certainly started out thinking I would use my stock heads, they're 596 castings but I havent had them checked yet and am worried I'd spend enough money on these with new valves, springs and machine work when for a little more i can go with something like the edelbrocks, which I can get for a little more than $1k.  This would also help in upping the compression with less chance of detonation than using the iron heads.

    I understand. My only point is that for a non-racing truck, one fancy head vs another won't make a difference in your application. Get the cheapest high-quality aluminum head you can get. Also, my problem with a bigger cam has been rocker arm strength vs the needed higher spring pressure. At high rpm I break factory stampings. You should look at that carefully.
    '85 W150 SB, 408 stroker, Magnum manifolds, Performer RPM, 670 Truck Avenger, HEI ignition, Auburn LSD 9.25 and '82 D44 (non-CAD) with 3.55/3.54,  NV4500/NP241

    Offline Jeffy45

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #11 on: July 10, 2020, 07:01:13 pm »
    ........ this just in "don't choke the flow"
    1988 Ramcharger LE 150 318 TBI 727 non-lockup.                   
           " If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it,   
                    he is obligated to do so"                                                   
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    Offline KurtfromLaQuinta

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #12 on: July 10, 2020, 11:24:37 pm »
    I'll respond to what you mentioned in the other thread here.  No smog/emissions to deal with, so no cats on that 2.25 exhaust.  I was able to get the exhaust kit made for the RC for $100 awhile ago, this was also when I was just planning on intake and exhaust rather than now going the whole kit and caboodle with the stroker.  So i can certainly go bigger if that is needed, but thought removing the cats and higher flow mufflers would still work since I'm not revving this to 5k RPM.

    I went through Hughes on most of these specs and it did include dished pistons and the 63cc edelbrock heads.
    I'm glad you followed Hughes advice.
    Those guys have some of the best info on how to put the pieces together for a balanced package.
    There's so many ways to mix up parts and have it go totally wrong.
    Speaking from experience here. My second small block build was not a good combo. Anytime your dealing with low compression things go wrong immediately. I've learned a lot. There's a lot of good info out there... as long as you can find it.
    500 c.i.- Scat Crank, Scat Rods, Indy Aluminum heads, Comp XR280HR Cam, Six-Pack, Milodon 8 qt. Pan, 727  (reverse-manual, low band apply, 5 clutch disc, 3 qt. xtra. pan), N.P. 205, Ford 9" rear axle (4:11, 31 spline axles, Detroit Locker, converted/ disc brakes). Dana 44 front (converted/ disc, 4:10, Tru-Trac limited slip). Hydra Boost Brake Booster, Gear Vendors OD. 600+ ft. lbs. of torque

    Offline Rabbit929

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #13 on: July 16, 2020, 08:45:45 am »
    I agree with Hughes. I told them what I had, which was an LA360 stock with EDDY HEADS AND A cast intake 4 barrel, the first thing he told me was he was surprised I splurged on the heads but not the intake, but is also not surprised as the stock intake actually flows pretty damned good. (For stock)
    With my tire size, stock (maybe 3.22?) junk rear end, they sold me a mild cam that had a nice mild lope, and would chirp my 33s at 20mph. A cam specific to my (meh) build, but also told me if I do anything nice to the driveline I would want another cam to really wake it up. He apexs it for what I had. And it is awesome.
    If I was trying to make the most I could and had the cash to back it up, Id buy bare eddy heads, have Hughes supper prep them, and build them for me.
    No one knows dodge like they do. 
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    Offline jaltb4k

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #14 on: July 18, 2020, 02:27:48 pm »
    the eddies are the best option. the w5s would be nice if they ever made one without huge porisity. the eddies are a great choice

    Offline inzane

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #15 on: September 8, 2020, 03:24:58 pm »
    My personal opinion of Dave Hughes, I wouldn't piss on his head if his hair was on fire.

    If you want low rpm torque go with the smaller port. My Eddy heads needed some cleanup on the port openings, Edelbrock's cnc work was pretty lousy.

    CANCER SUCKS.

    '86 RC.  Fresh '90 MPFI LA360 with some shiny crap on it / 727/208 / 60's on 35's w/4.10's / rear Spartan/front E locker / 4" Softrides / ORD crossover
     '94 Dakota Sport Club Cab
     '75 Dodge Travco 270

    Offline Jeffy45

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #16 on: September 8, 2020, 04:15:29 pm »
    1988 Ramcharger LE 150 318 TBI 727 non-lockup.                   
           " If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it,   
                    he is obligated to do so"                                                   
                                                                 - Thomas Jefferson

    Offline Chilly

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #17 on: September 8, 2020, 04:44:28 pm »
    Seconds on smaller ports for an engine that isnt going to rev high.  Keeps the fuel-air charge moving fast, which keeps fuel in suspension instead of forming droplets.  That's the "why".  Different answer if you were talking port injection.

    And "small" is a relative term here.  I'd say none of your options have small ports.  Likely have choice between big ports, or gigantic ports. 
    92 Ramcharger
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    44F, 9.25R posi, 3.54 gears (yeah, I know)
    Skyjacker 4", 33x12.5

    Offline Jeffy45

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #18 on: September 8, 2020, 05:29:49 pm »
    Small port stroker should be a  low end torq monster no?
    1988 Ramcharger LE 150 318 TBI 727 non-lockup.                   
           " If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it,   
                    he is obligated to do so"                                                   
                                                                 - Thomas Jefferson

    Offline KurtfromLaQuinta

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #19 on: September 8, 2020, 06:19:26 pm »
    IMMENGINES.COM
    http://www.immengines.com/indyimmironheads.html
    Brian. I know Brian. Indio is the community next to mine.
    Indio Motor Machine used to be a local joke around here. But, BUT Brian learned though many errors to be fairly decent at what he does. He is a Mopar guy. But, BUT like any engine builder out there (see inzane comments above), they're always ones who hate.
    I haven't had a problem with Hughes. I know they can get irate with customers who keep calling them with stupid questions. When their website usually explains how to do things correctly. Anytime you do something custom for a customer... things can go wrong. I know this with my business. All it takes is that one customer to go on the internet and the whole world knows his hatred and how lousy you are. Thankfully that hasn't happened to me.
    My advice... for what that's worth... ask a lot of questions with the people you want to deal with. Listen to what they have to say. Be like a woman... get in touch with your feminine side... and listen to your intuition. Don't listen with to much excitement. Your brain will lie to you. You can tell if the person is just blowing braggart smoke.
    There's a lot of engine builders out there with huge egos. Avoid them. Humble is always better.
    500 c.i.- Scat Crank, Scat Rods, Indy Aluminum heads, Comp XR280HR Cam, Six-Pack, Milodon 8 qt. Pan, 727  (reverse-manual, low band apply, 5 clutch disc, 3 qt. xtra. pan), N.P. 205, Ford 9" rear axle (4:11, 31 spline axles, Detroit Locker, converted/ disc brakes). Dana 44 front (converted/ disc, 4:10, Tru-Trac limited slip). Hydra Boost Brake Booster, Gear Vendors OD. 600+ ft. lbs. of torque

    Offline KurtfromLaQuinta

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #20 on: September 8, 2020, 06:30:39 pm »
    Small port stroker should be a  low end torq monster no?
    My stroker puts out at least 600 ft. lbs. of torque .
    It has what you would call "big port'" heads... aluminum Indy EZ's. And they were modified by Hughes. They flow more than ANY stock iron head from Mopar.
    I see no problem running decent port sized heads... especially with a stroker engine and not having any problem with torque. Why even bother building a stroker... if you don't take advantage of the extra cubic inches?
    « Last Edit: September 8, 2020, 06:32:23 pm by KurtfromLaQuinta »
    500 c.i.- Scat Crank, Scat Rods, Indy Aluminum heads, Comp XR280HR Cam, Six-Pack, Milodon 8 qt. Pan, 727  (reverse-manual, low band apply, 5 clutch disc, 3 qt. xtra. pan), N.P. 205, Ford 9" rear axle (4:11, 31 spline axles, Detroit Locker, converted/ disc brakes). Dana 44 front (converted/ disc, 4:10, Tru-Trac limited slip). Hydra Boost Brake Booster, Gear Vendors OD. 600+ ft. lbs. of torque

    Offline inzane

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #21 on: September 8, 2020, 06:41:51 pm »
    Brian. I know Brian. Indio is the community next to mine.
    Indio Motor Machine used to be a local joke around here. But, BUT Brian learned though many errors to be fairly decent at what he does. He is a Mopar guy. But, BUT like any engine builder out there (see inzane comments above), they're always ones who hate.
    I haven't had a problem with Hughes. I know they can get irate with customers who keep calling them with stupid questions. When their website usually explains how to do things correctly. Anytime you do something custom for a customer... things can go wrong. I know this with my business. All it takes is that one customer to go on the internet and the whole world knows his hatred and how lousy you are. Thankfully that hasn't happened to me.
    My advice... for what that's worth... ask a lot of questions with the people you want to deal with. Listen to what they have to say. Be like a woman... get in touch with your feminine side... and listen to your intuition. Don't listen with to much excitement. Your brain will lie to you. You can tell if the person is just blowing braggart smoke.
    There's a lot of engine builders out there with huge egos. Avoid them. Humble is always better.



    Referring to Dave Hughes. When I've already spent several thousands of dollars with a builder/supplier he should have the courtesy to answer a few questions about his products. Instead he chose to simply hang up on me.

    The info I needed is not on their website. Specifically, questions about their MPFI dual plane and injector bung placement.  If that is all it takes to piss in his Post Toasties I'll buy my parts elsewhere. Talked to the man twice, he was a dickhead both times.
    CANCER SUCKS.

    '86 RC.  Fresh '90 MPFI LA360 with some shiny crap on it / 727/208 / 60's on 35's w/4.10's / rear Spartan/front E locker / 4" Softrides / ORD crossover
     '94 Dakota Sport Club Cab
     '75 Dodge Travco 270

    Offline inzane

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    Re: Opinions on aluminum cylinder heads for 410 stroker
    « Reply #22 on: September 8, 2020, 06:50:51 pm »
    My apologies to the OP for taking the thread on an irrelevant tangent.

    From what I've seen the Eddy RPM head is generally good for 450+ HP and 500lbft on a 408, depending on cam choice and other factors. That generally occurs around 5500 rpm. Beyond that RPM point a bigger port appears beneficial, the out of the box Eddy port becomes a little small.
    CANCER SUCKS.

    '86 RC.  Fresh '90 MPFI LA360 with some shiny crap on it / 727/208 / 60's on 35's w/4.10's / rear Spartan/front E locker / 4" Softrides / ORD crossover
     '94 Dakota Sport Club Cab
     '75 Dodge Travco 270

     

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