Author Topic: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?  (Read 1737 times)

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Offline Doyle

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Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
« on: July 22, 2020, 08:13:30 am »
No trade secret, domestic auto manufacturer's are making their money with trucks, crossovers, SUV's and the like. Cars, good old basic cars - as I understand it - are sitting in piles of unsold inventories. 

The U.S. market even forced the Euro-stalwarts to bring SUV configured four door vehicles to this market...or simply concede the sales in it.

Now the Bronco is back. You can't even get one until 2021, but it hasn't stopped the fever pitched fervor for it. (A nice marketing strategy goes to someone!) 

So my question is: Will Dodge respond!?!?

Or, as with the original Bronco, will Dodge be slow to the same party a second time?

And in my view, trying to cover the potential hemorrhage of sales via the Bronco with just the Jeep line ain't gonna cut it.

Want proof? Go test drive a RAM 1500 Laramie or Limited. Then drive the Gladiator Rubicon. Notice any difference? Their transaction cost, meaning true buy price, (forget MSRP) are quite similar. Crazy, huh?

And YES, it is two different buying groups. But by Dodge not responding...they're ignoring one of those two groups. In another discussion within this very site, someone showed what a 2020 Ramcharger could look like. NO ONE is presently in this market space. I'm certainly never considering either a Tahoe or Suburban. No Blazer to be found, at least not yet. Noting, I wouldn't ever buy a GM product either, but I digress. 

Summary: I'll never find the mid-sized (over priced) Jeep(s) a buying option for me. I would buy a new Ramcharger. Heck, put the Hellcat motor in it and I'll buy it even faster. Dodge is crushing it with their niche' high performance cars. Wake up 'Dodge Boys,' there's a market revival with the Ford Bronco. Please don't sit on your hands for this one.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 09:33:43 am by Doyle »

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    Offline Elwenil

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #1 on: July 22, 2020, 10:54:01 am »
    Dodge won't, FCA already has the Jeep in that market.  About the only thing I can see might be Jeep offering a cheaper version of the Rubicon since the Sasquatch package with front and rear lockers and larger tires is available on all Bronco models.  They only offer the sway bar disconnect on their top of the line models, but I still think Jeep might have to rethink the pricing a bit since you can only get lockers on the most expensive model, the Rubicon.  But then again, this is Ford, and they will screw it up one way or another, they always do.  Looking at their IFS and that oddly complicated sway bar disconnect, I can just see the warranty nightmare that will be.  They also have too many models that cover the same things, so probably half of them will disappear soon.  But no, FCA doesn't want to compete with itself, so there won't be anything from Dodge other than what is already there.  I do look for them to start offering a rear locker on some truck models, but nothing special.  And remember, "Ram Ramcharger" sounds retarded, so I doubt we will ever see it again.
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    Offline shanker

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #2 on: July 22, 2020, 01:04:17 pm »
    I hope that they don't.

    In my opinion.  Jeeps are WAAAAAY overpriced for what they are. 

    My wife has an FJ Cruiser and it's pretty badass. 


    GM has ruined the Blazer name, and I'm fearful that if FCA touches the Ramcharger name, they'll ruin it too.


    Ford is taking Toyota on with the Bronco.  Toyota's are far better offroad vehicles than GM/Jeep/Dodge (Look at the Land Cruiser, 4Runner, FJ Cruiser *even though discontinued*, and even the Rav4).

    The people who buy jeeps, will keep buying jeeps, but the people who realize jeeps are overpriced but still want a truly capable offroad vehicle but want something a little more *fun* than a Toyota, are going to be buying Bronco's.

    I may buy one myself.  Big Bend Edition with Sasquatch package :)

    Offline Doyle

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #3 on: July 22, 2020, 01:48:03 pm »
    For starters, regarding the new Bronco line up, I said two "...different buying groups."

    There are the 'nuts & bolts,' hard core off road folks. The 4WD enthusiast likely best served by aftermarket 4WD specialists...not by a stock brand new Bronco. And, Ford speculates the most popular models will start around $40K. 

    Then, I'd safely imagine, there's the majority. They'll spend $50K plus on a brand new 4WD. That rig will more than likely never see dirt. Those folks will also never care about knowing what a 'locker' even is.

    Bronco buyers are not lining up now for a 2021 release 'cuz they're waiting to go 4 wheeling. Some will, majority won't. With their current advertising, Ford is doing their best to give the Bronco - not street - but "dirt cred." A play on Jeep's Trail Rated I'm sure.

    The potential for sales volume is what converts from a concept to the production floor. Again, the Tahoe & Suburban market. By dimension, the Grand Cherokee is mid-sized by any comparison. The only thing similar is their price. Off of the existing 1/2 ton platform, a DODGE Ramcharger could exist without starting from scratch.  FCA already has that in the 'full size' RAM 1500 production playbook.

    RAM Ramcharger? Really? Of course not. It's called branding. Way back when, did you ever hear of a Plymouth Trailduster? Bet you did. It's branding...brand it back to Dodge. Same Dealer, same showroom...done!

    For context, my daily driver is a '16 RAM Laramie Power Wagon. It's luxury combined with on-the-fly locking hubs, disconnecting sway bars, hill descent & a 12,000 pound winch. But out of the 22,000 miles on it, 20 of them (maybe) required any of those features.

    Is Dodge ready to sit back and watch Ford run away with this market segment...again? 

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #4 on: July 22, 2020, 02:27:34 pm »
    Is Dodge ready to sit back and watch Ford run away with this market segment...again?
    Yes. Except for the minivan, and some extent the Cummins, Chrysler has always ignored the market trends, and always will.
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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #5 on: July 23, 2020, 09:22:03 am »
    FCA is dead.  it is now STELLANTIS  {puke}
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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #6 on: July 23, 2020, 09:34:21 am »
    Any way I look at it, it all boils down to Chrysler/Dodge is now a foreign company. All corporate profits now go overseas. Chrysler took the taxpayer funded bailout... and then bailed out. I will never buy a new product from them. Used is a different story as the proceeds stay in the USA.
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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #7 on: July 25, 2020, 07:21:44 am »
    "What was old is new again" Notice a pattern? The original Broncos were built to compete against the original CJ's. Then Ford decided to shift gears and upsize the Bronco to compete against arch enemy Chevrolet and their better selling Blazer. Dodge beat Ford to that punch with the Ramcharger and Trailduster. Years later the Blazer is renamed, the RC/TD are gone, and the fullsize Bronco replaced with more car-like suvs. The CJ got renamed and bought out by Chrysler, which still exists today

    Now Ford wants to do what it did decades ago -to build a competitor to the Wrangler. I say go fer it. The best it can do for us on the FCA team is to help bring down the price of the Wrangler.

    IMO, the Bronco looks cool, but it's gonna take on the Jeep with cupholders and IFS??? Get real! As far as Dodge (Ram) building a competitor to the Bronco, I'm of the same belief as others here, that FCA will not bother. The Jeep brand has all that covered. The Ram brand is currently geared more towards the big truck crowd, and they have some really good full size trucks going on. They could make some improvements to the Power Wagon which I think are well over-due, but thats never gonna be a Bronco fighter.

    If FCA can read my posts and take suggestions, keep making improvements to the Wrangler. Bring back the I-6! It doesn't have to be the old 4.0, just get rid of that V6...We want torque and I-6s are better at low end twist. Speaking of torque, tap Cummins for a new small I-4 turbo diesel. Don't give us another VM Motori diesel. We want real diesels! If you have plans for an IFS for future Wranglers, my suggestion is, scrap them! Keep using the Dana solid axles. This is the small block chevy of axles with tons of aftermarket support.

    Finally improve product quality. Jeeps are notorious for cheap plastic parts that break, ill fitting parts, and other stupid warrantee claims that nickel and dime you to death.

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #8 on: July 25, 2020, 08:05:51 am »
    The couple exterior shots of the bronco that I've seen do strike me a petty good refresh of the original bronco except for the fugly grille. If they hadn't landed in my feed, wouldn't have seen them because ya know, it's a ferd.

    The other thing that landed in my feed was the early 70s Cherokee resto mod that the Jeep design team did and I dug that much more. Chrysler, even under FCA seems to embrace it's heritage more actively and respectfully vs the other guys. Yeah, the turbine tribute 300 was ridiculously lame but it's not that uncommon to spot genuine old school metal around Jeep media events. They can't build it for sale but they a least not only remember it but occasional dust it off and drive it.

    Having said that, I will say that I really hope they don't bring back the RC / TD and even more so since the latest sell out. Part of that is how I connect to early iterations that were low tech, bare bones, tough as nails and reasonable affordable. An original bronco or cj in a much bigger box. The later ones did evolve in to leather lined luxo [for the age] built for the street and got big sticker prices but I'm sure I'd still cringe at the 2020 version of that.

    It's my usual rant about how ya can't walk in to dealership and drive out with something cool unless you take out a 2nd mortgage and accept a bunch bundled features ya don't really want. I just can't imagine PSA making that any better. Uglier maybe but that's about it.
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    Offline Elwenil

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #9 on: July 25, 2020, 09:19:24 am »

    If FCA can read my posts and take suggestions, keep making improvements to the Wrangler. Bring back the I-6! It doesn't have to be the old 4.0, just get rid of that V6...We want torque and I-6s are better at low end twist. Speaking of torque, tap Cummins for a new small I-4 turbo diesel. Don't give us another VM Motori diesel. We want real diesels! If you have plans for an IFS for future Wranglers, my suggestion is, scrap them! Keep using the Dana solid axles. This is the small block chevy of axles with tons of aftermarket support.


    The most powerful version of the 4.0L made 235 ft lbs of torque at 3,200 RPM.  The 3.6L Pentastar V6 matches that and maxes out at 260 ft. lbs at 4,200 RPM.  It will eventually all be electric anyway.

    As for small diesels, Cummins has yet to make a small diesel that will pass emissions for light vehicles.  that's also the reason the 4.0L went away, it would cost to much to get it to pass modern emissions standards.

    I'm afraid IFS is inevitable for Jeep, including the Wrangler.  When the top racers in Ultra4 are running IFS, it's only a matter of time for it to trickle down. 
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    Offline RedneckInTraining

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #10 on: July 25, 2020, 12:00:54 pm »
    I would accept ultra 4 IFS over a solid axle every day of the week, the problem with ifs, is and always has been, bean counters.
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    Offline Doyle

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #11 on: July 25, 2020, 12:13:41 pm »
    What is it people like about their RC's? Obviously, depending on the individual, there are many different things.

    For me? I like - in particular - the size. The 'full body,' 1/2 ton, RAM 1500 size. I'm 6' 3". Not short, but far from tall. And even at my height, the original Bronco is a knee knocker. Back seat? Forget it!

    So in that regard...I've sat in Jeeps...I certainly don't see where Jeep is anywhere near having that (market) 'covered.' A percentage of it, yup. But 'covered'? Uhhh, nope! Curious comparison...I've not taken the time to check the dimensions, but I'd guess the biggest Jeep is no bigger than a Dakota.

    Why did Chevy build the Blazer full size? Just a guess, but was it a take off of a 1/2 ton truck they were already building?

    Unless, unlike last time, if they just want to chase the Ford Bronco into the small(er) 4WD market with what they've already got, then yes, stay with the Jeep only. Roll the dice.   

    A forecast? Jeep market share is going to get clobbered once the Bronco is up to full production. A full sized (!!!) Dodge Ramcharger wouldn't be as vulnerable.

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #12 on: July 25, 2020, 12:57:29 pm »
    I doubt Jeep sales will be hurt too much by the Bronco.  A Jeep is still a Jeep, and there are a lot of people loyal to that brand name.  Just look at how many 75th Anniversary Jeeps are out there, or olive green ones, or Wranglers with the 1941 graphics.  Even the odd hood stripe with the various Jeep grilles on it is popular.  Sure, there are some who buy a Jeep for the performance off road and don't care about the name that will buy a Bronco.  There are those who are loyal to Ford, but buy Jeeps because Ford didn't have a competitor that will now look at buying a Bronco, but the vast majority would stick with Jeep either because of loyalty, design, or whatever.  The Bronco would need to do something astounding to win over the entire market, and it filed to do that.  It's pricing was the one place it could have made a difference, but now that the pricing information has been released, it's not going to be any cheaper than the Wrangler.  Let's also keep in mind that the Bronco is two separate models, one to compete with the Wrangler and the "Sport" which is more in competition with the Compass or Renegade.

    Speaking of the Renegade, be careful what you wish for.  If the Ramcharger does come back, it could very easily end up a Dodge version of the Renegade, a re-bodied Fiat 500 made in Italy.  Every iteration of Chrysler since the Ramcharger was discontinued has said the same thing, there is no market for a full size, 2 door SUV.  Anything else would be disappointing to Ramcharger fans, but what we want would be a dismal failure in sales.
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    Offline Doyle

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #13 on: July 25, 2020, 01:41:42 pm »
    Hey, as long as we're bantering about Jeep vs. Bronco...I'm cool.

    I certainly don't want any version of Fiat 4WD (other than their Corporate name) creeping into the market and replacing American roots. Sure, they're gonna try 'influence' as much as they deem necessary. Inevitable.

    It will be curious to look back at this in a year or two and see how this market segment / sales plays out.

    I suppose the next big buzz will be the RAM Hell-Rebel...

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #14 on: July 25, 2020, 03:31:41 pm »
    Well there was the V8 Wrangler unveiled recently...
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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #15 on: July 25, 2020, 05:07:13 pm »
    Well there was the V8 Wrangler unveiled recently...

           WARNING SARCASM ALERT
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    ....Was it a small block chevy.....
    ....Do they still make the 4.7.....
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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #16 on: July 25, 2020, 09:19:29 pm »
    Want low end torque, good mileage, and great drivability, go full hybrid. 200 or so HP from the electric motors, and 250 or so on tap from the gas.
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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #17 on: July 25, 2020, 10:14:22 pm »
    I'm certainly never considering either a Tahoe or Suburban. No Blazer to be found, at least not yet. Noting, I wouldn't ever buy a GM product either, but I digress. 


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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #18 on: July 25, 2020, 10:17:15 pm »
    The most powerful version of the 4.0L made 235 ft lbs of torque at 3,200 RPM.  The 3.6L Pentastar V6 matches that and maxes out at 260 ft. lbs at 4,200 RPM.

    It's a matter of engine physics. How much torque an engine makes is directly related to displacement, But if you want low end torque, or more torque production at a lower rpm, you want a longer stroke. Displacement-wise the 3.6 and 4.0 are kinda close, so they should make close to the same amount of torque, but even though both engines are over-square, the 4.0 still has a slightly longer stroke and that means torque is produced at lower rpm. The numbers you posted reveals that point. The 4.0 and 3.6 make about the same amount of torque, but the 4.0 makes it at 3200rpm where the 3.6 produces it at 4200rpm. That can be considered a significant difference.

    Quote
    As for small diesels, Cummins has yet to make a small diesel that will pass emissions for light vehicles.  that's also the reason the 4.0L went away, it would cost to much to get it to pass modern emissions standards.

    Cummins is fully capable of building a small diesel that can pass emissions. Maybe it's not feasible at this time, but maybe at some point in the near future, it's possible. And as an FYI, I believe that President Trump has relaxed emission standards so that it maybe possible and profitable to make a small diesel.... Having said all that it seems that since my last post until this evening, I've just purchased a Ram 1500 with an Ecodiesel...so stay tuned for that

    Quote
    I'm afraid IFS is inevitable for Jeep, including the Wrangler.  When the top racers in Ultra4 are running IFS, it's only a matter of time for it to trickle down.

    It doesn't matter what type of suspension ulta4 uses, a production vehicle could never be mistaken for a competition vehicle. I have always believed that the switch to IFS wasn't always about improving ride and handling or lowered ride height. IFS is lighter then a solid axle and vehicle manufacturers are constantly pressured to improve fuel efficiency. IFS could be a great system, but in the light weight "fuel efficent" versions being developed it's usually too flimsy to survive real wheeling. IFS is probably inevitable for the Wrangler...unless of course, the customer base demands the solid axle. Back in the 80s Ford planned for the Mustang to go to FWD and even developed a FWD Mustang concept car...that is until they heard the outrage from the customer base who demanded the Mustang remain a RWD car. The FWD concept eventually became the Probe and didn't last very long. I think theres enough Jeep purists who wants the solid axle to remain in the Wrangler that FCA might want to heed this warning

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    Offline RWG75

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #19 on: July 26, 2020, 06:55:25 am »
    Some random grumbling:

    The Ramcharger badge is pretty unlikely to return because of marketing basics. Assuming truck based it would be built under the Ram brand resulting in Ram Ramcharger. If sold under the Dodge brand to make the naming work it would be built as a crossover, aka a Pacifica. Built as a poser mall crawler with legit off road cred would make it a Jeep and I think maybe Jeep Trail Duster has a better ring to it.

    Gas vs diesel vs electric vs hybrid - the debate about marketing and regulation forces driving that decision is pretty much beyond my interest level. Personally, I like good ole gas and I'll skip the bit about storage cells with a 40 year life span not being a thing that exists yet.

    IFS vs straight axle? Is anything being built anywhere that still has a solid front axle?

    Exterior dimensions vs useable space: I've randomly parked my old RC next to a 90s / 00s Expedition / Explorer or whatever ferd branded their "full size" 4 door SUV back then. My RC in stock form is taller, wider and generally looks a lot more beefier. It also has much less rear seat room and cargo space. Not sure I have a point here.

    For myself, I'd like to see PSA steal a page from the Daimler play book and follow the formula they used when resurrecting the Challenger. They kept the basic dimensions and body lines, updated for aero advantage and arguably came up with something that looked better than the original. They also built it in 2 distinct flavors. One being the bucks down V6, cloth seats, radio not infotainment and overall with the theme of basic transportation. The other being big ticket Hemi, leather, nav and screw both MPG and tire wear.

    I don't follow the trends close enough to say for sure but I think FCA missed that trick with both the Ram and Jeep evolutions. They kept the crew cab diesel dually drag a house off it's foundation and the yer only getting up that trail in a jeep but made the more plush than an Imperial features pretty much mandatory or at least hard to avoid. Do vinyl seats even exist anymore?
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    Offline Elwenil

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #20 on: July 26, 2020, 07:09:39 am »
    3/4 and heavier Rams have a solid front axle.  Jeep Wrangler and Gladiator both still use a solid front axle.  I'm sure Ford and GM trucks also have solid axle models in the heavier trucks, but I don't get paid enough to look under them.  ;D
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    Offline KThaxton

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #21 on: July 27, 2020, 10:36:53 am »


      Toyota's are far better offroad vehicles than GM/Jeep/Dodge (Look at the Land Cruiser, 4Runner, FJ Cruiser *even though discontinued*, and even the Rav4).

    Totally disagree with the Jeep comment. A Rubicon wins with lockers front AND rear, lower t-case gears, electric sway bar disconnect, better approach and departure angles and a solid front axle.....I'm sure there are other things I am forgetting.
    STOP PLATE TECTONICS!

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    Offline u2slow

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #22 on: July 27, 2020, 12:34:33 pm »
    IMHO, the only way we'll see a solid-axle Ramcharger again is with some kind of Wrangler spin-off.

    Ford and GM both stopped making 3/4-ton SUVs, so it would be really out of character for FCA to go there with HD Ram. A specially outfitted Durango would miss the mark entirely.
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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #23 on: July 27, 2020, 12:54:19 pm »
    The bronco looks like Land rover designed it for the yuppie crowd.

    It is a jeep for the fords only folks.
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    Offline Mojack

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #24 on: July 27, 2020, 01:29:57 pm »
    What's with the black one, it looks like it has a shower cap on.... ???
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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #25 on: July 27, 2020, 02:14:12 pm »
    Just wait until all the no-child-left-behind and common core kids start designing cars...   ;D
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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #26 on: July 27, 2020, 02:22:48 pm »
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    Offline W_A_Watson_II

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #27 on: July 27, 2020, 08:47:01 pm »
    The bronco looks like Land rover designed it for the yuppie crowd.

    Very VERY well said!
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    Offline KurtfromLaQuinta

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #28 on: July 27, 2020, 10:26:17 pm »
    I can't wait to see one on the road so my truck has more to chew on.  ;D
    Or off the road, that my truck can embarrass it.
    I personally don't like ANY new 4 wheel drive vehicle. Everyone I've driven has a total disconnect feel to them. Way too much auto controls involved with them. I like to feel what the vehicle is doing.
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    Offline RWG75

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #29 on: July 28, 2020, 07:56:26 am »
    I can't wait to see one on the road so my truck has more to chew on.  ;D
    Or off the road, that my truck can embarrass it.
    I personally don't like ANY new 4 wheel drive vehicle. Everyone I've driven has a total disconnect feel to them. Way too much auto controls involved with them. I like to feel what the vehicle is doing.

    Some where in this thread I had the same thought. Some kinda clip of the thing doing something and the random mental image of your truck slapping it around. Hill decent assist really? Ever heard of dropping it down a gear or two and pumping the brakes?

    The get off my lawn moment for me: clicked the recent link, followed it to a link about 7 cool features. Got to one about standard equipment including a dash top rack for mounting your go-pro.
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    Offline pir2

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #30 on: July 29, 2020, 05:51:15 am »
    Got to one about standard equipment including a dash top rack for mounting your go-pro.
    Gotta expect these things.It's a ford ;D
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    Offline RCCADMAN

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #31 on: July 29, 2020, 03:10:07 pm »
    Just wait until all the no-child-left-behind and common core kids start designing cars...   ;D

    I work in engineering designing commercial and military aircraft. I hope I retire before these common coridiots come in and make the math 100 times harder than it needs to be. Then I won't fly on any new planes...
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    Offline RXT

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #32 on: August 1, 2020, 07:39:27 am »



    The more I look at them, the more I dislike. Is it just me?

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    Offline Doyle

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #33 on: August 1, 2020, 11:06:35 am »
    From this one pic, the grills and the two colors are certainly underwhelming. I have seen other pictures, different angles, that were much more attractive. Even the BRONCO blacked out, toned down, looks better.

    Have you seen the one model with the (designer) hole in the door? I'm sure someone can espouse the style point & its' functionality in lengthy detail. But it's still a hole...

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #34 on: August 1, 2020, 04:06:00 pm »



    The more I look at them, the more I dislike. Is it just me?

    Ed
    They're Pherd's.
    They all look fugly. ;D
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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #35 on: August 1, 2020, 04:58:17 pm »
    The door with the hole in it is Ford's misguided attempt at making the tube style doors popular on many rock crawlers.  Too bad Ford completely missed the point as usual.  In their defense, there are aftermarket doors made for the bro-dozer/mall crawler crowd with Jeeps that are similarly styled and similarly useless.
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    Offline u2slow

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #36 on: August 1, 2020, 06:26:56 pm »
    Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?

    Wake up 'Dodge Boys,' there's a market revival with the Ford Bronco. Please don't sit on your hands for this one.

    Umm.... now that I think about it, the New Bronco is the response to the Dodge/FCA's JK Wrangler. They don't need to re-respond.

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    Offline Elwenil

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #37 on: August 1, 2020, 09:05:21 pm »
    It's the JL now.  {cool}
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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #38 on: August 1, 2020, 09:35:53 pm »
    It's the JL now.  {cool}
    That just does not have the ring to it like JK does.
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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #39 on: August 2, 2020, 06:01:10 am »
    That just does not have the ring to it like JK does.

    Yeah, but "JK" always reminded me of "KJ", and I don't think anyone needs to be thinking about a first gen Liberty when they think Jeep.
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    Offline Doyle

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #40 on: August 2, 2020, 11:00:06 am »
    When I started this topic...it was about the original Bronco and how Dodge finally responded with the Ramcharger. Was it market demand? And if so, who created it? So unless someone can verify this fact otherwise, I doubt in 1974 (when the RC finally made its' debut) any Jeep model motivated Dodge to jump in to this market segment. If they scraped a few Jeep buyers away, they'd take it. The primary target was Dodge finally reacting to the Ford Bronco (and the Blazer).

    It was 1987 when Chrysler bought Jeep. By 1987 the Ford Bronco looked very pedestrian. Like a full size 2 door station wagon on a truck frame. Ford was certainly not targeting Jeep buyers with this.

    There's a preoccupation with Jeep a number of you share. Cool, fine. The 'nuts & bolts' (and countless model designations) for Jeeps has nothing to do it. Jeep fans are Jeep fans, I get it. However, I could care less about these undersized, overpriced vehicles. The J 'this' & J 'that,' they're still way too small & too spendy for what they are. 

    I now own four Dodge trucks. I only mention this so no one questions my brand loyalty & commitment.

    In fact, I haven't owned a Ford since the early '90's. That was the 'brand new' Ford Explorer when they first came out. After that was a Range Rover County LWB. Why? Because of the AWD capability combined with the large interior space. I've only ever owned one Jeep - a '79 Cherokee Super Chief. For Jeep, a huge 2 door vehicle. They don't make anything that size anymore. Too bad. (And 'yes,' I'd love to have that one back!)

    So, questions: In units, how are Jeep Gladiator sales? How are Dodge Ram sales? In any degree of volume, how many are buying the Gladiator instead of a Ford F-150? Yes, these are all pickups. But it's about market demand, nothing more. 

    Credit where credit is due. Ford is bringing back a popular vehicle. Dodge ain't doing too bad with their new versions of the Challenger & Charger either, are they? Market demand...

    I said it prior, it'll be interesting to look back a year or two from now and see where the vehicle sales in this segment have gone. And again, will the Dodge Boys have sat on their hands and watched Ford crush it with the new Bronco???

    Offline Elwenil

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #41 on: August 2, 2020, 12:07:18 pm »
    The original Bronco was built to compete with the CJ5 and the Scout.  I doubt the full-sized Ramcharger was designed for that market.  More than likely it was to compete with the Blazer that came out in '69.  Even Ford switched the Bronco to a full size in '78 to compete with the Blazer, Ramcharger, Trailduster and Wagoneer. 

    The new Bronco is competing against the Jeep JL.  None of this has anything to do with the Ramcharger, no matter how you look at it.

    In '87 Ford had the full size Bronco as well as the smaller Bronco II.  They had no competitor to the Jeep.  The only competition for the Jeep in the '80s was the Tracker and Sidekick.  In all actuality, a full size SUV was not known as an SUV in the mid '80s.  They were titled as a 4WD Station Wagon in most states.

    As for liking Jeeps, I don't like them as a personal vehicle.  As a off road vehicle, they are second to none for someone looking for a turn key vehicle they can immediately take off road in a variety of situations depending on the model and options selected.

    I have never owned a Ford, nor will I.  Their popularity stands as undeniable evidence of how stupid the average American really is.

    The Jeep WK Grand Cherokee is the same length as a Grand Wagoneer and less than an inch narrower.  So, same basic size.

    Gladiator sales at my dealership are slow.  General consensus is they are too expensive.  While some people love them, most people in the market for a midsize truck don't care about many of the exclusive Jeep features like the removable roof and doors that drive the cost up.  As for the F150, that is a different market being a full size truck.  Rams are selling very well and about all we can keep on the lot for any length of time are high end models with a ton of options and a price to match.  Again, you seem to be blurring the lines of different markets.  Someone wanting an F150 is not normally even going to give a Gladiator or even a Tundra a second look.  Similarly, someone wanting a Tundra isn't going to be looking at a Ram 1500 or other full size truck.  They are different animals.

    Ford is bringing back a popular name, not a vehicle.  While the new Bronco does appear to be popular now, it has very little in common with the original Bronco, just as all the other vintage remake models have little in common with the originals, Challenger, Mustang, Camaro, etc.

    Again, Dodge has no need of a competing vehicle to the Bronco as FCA already has Jeep, the leader in that market.  FCA already has too many overlapping SUVs, more low volume vehicles is not going to make anyone any money.  "Reacting" to Ford reacting to the Jeep makes no sense.  If I make the world's best widget and another company tries to compete with their over version, why would I make another widget model to compete with my own product and drive costs up across the board?
    L.Clemons

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    Offline Doyle

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #42 on: August 2, 2020, 02:59:56 pm »
    Dodge certainly could've / should've used the Dakota back then. That mid size chassis was certainly closer in dimension to the original Bronco & Scout of that era. So then...why did Dodge instead use the full size chassis for the RC???

    '...blurring lines...' Given one key factor, I can't say I'm blurring any lines. But there is a line. It's one 'line' and it's the bottom line. Vehicle cost. Full size, mid size...whatever. You plunk down your money and you drive off in a vehicle. And, you hope and personally believe, it's what best fits your life & budget reality.

    A Gladiator? Now that blurs the lines. In physical dimension, mid size. In cost, full size. My local Dealer has had 'numerous' folks come look at the Gladiator and drive away in a Ram 1500. That's one heckuva marketing ploy to sell Ram's. Noting my blatant sarcasm.

    And I'm going to go back and look into the size difference between my old Cherokee and a modern Grand Wagoneer. The size of the GW doesn't seem 'Grand' at all. Decently optioned, big bucks in a dinky package. Certainly smaller than a Tahoe. Am I wrong???

    I, like most (especially at my age), love retro. For example, I love walking in to a bar and seeing a PBR handle sitting next to 25 handles of new stuff. Guess what I ask for? So, whether it's the vehicle or just the name, Ford will cash in on the retro Bronco. Sales are sales. 'What's old is new again.' This is a very well worn cliche' for obvious reasons.

    Funny! So what started all of this? What started this entire topic?

    I'm looking for another vehicle and can't find anything to buy. Got pickups covered. Euro's are out. GM, certainly out. No Asian stuff. So right now - if I had to make a decision today - it'd be either a Charger Hellcat or a late 70's Jeep Cherokee SJ (assuming I could even find one). While Dealer's are flooded with new inventory...this is where I sit. Crazy? Sure seems so.   

     


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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #43 on: August 2, 2020, 03:05:05 pm »
    If you want to look back at history, Dodge truck sales in the 70's, were mainly aimed at the fleet sales (businesses, and Govt DOT, and such). I have not seen any numbers, if they are even available, but I do know several states that mainly bought Dodge crewcabs for their DOT (Whats yellow, has 4 doors, and sleeps 6?). I used to frequent the Pa, and Md state auctions, and all they had was Dodge trucks, and were  rusted and beat to hell. The Pa game commission had green Ramchargers, And Dot supervisors got Dodge vans.

    I bring all that up, because I do not believe that Dodge cared about the average costumer in the 70's, as Fleet sales led the companies decisions. The ramcharger came out because many states were going to chebby blazers and Suburbans for supervisors.

    In the 70's when full size vans were the craze, Dodge had the market cornered, and let Ford and chebby take it from them.

    The 80's, when Cheby came out with the 6.2 diesel, and took many fleet sales from Dodge, is what caused Dodge trucks & RC's to mature, and deliver options that the average costumer wanted. Then Dodge entered the civilian truck market with both feet.
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    Offline Elwenil

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #44 on: August 2, 2020, 07:59:44 pm »
    Dodge certainly could've / should've used the Dakota back then. That mid size chassis was certainly closer in dimension to the original Bronco & Scout of that era. So then...why did Dodge instead use the full size chassis for the RC???

    There was no mid size chassis in '74.  Even Jeep considered their smaller platform "full size".  Eventually Dodge did build an SUV on the Dakota platform, it's called the Durango.

    Quote
    A Gladiator? Now that blurs the lines. In physical dimension, mid size. In cost, full size. My local Dealer has had 'numerous' folks come look at the Gladiator and drive away in a Ram 1500. That's one heckuva marketing ploy to sell Ram's. Noting my blatant sarcasm.

    Check out the MSRP on a Toyota Tundra.  The Gladiator isn't that far off, but Jeeps are known for problems and Toyotas are known for being reliable.  I myself was looking very closely at the Gladiator.  I really wanted a PW7 Bright White Gladiator Rubicon with a manual transmission.  It was the desire for a truck with a manual transmission that drove me to look at the Gladiator as FCA doesn't make any other trucks with an available manual transmission.  In the end I gave up on the manual, kept my factory 4 speed Ramcharger, and bought a 2018 Ram 2500 Crew Cab with low miles.  It was half the price of the Gladiator, and aside from the off road capability, it's much more truck than the Gladiator ever could be.  I still hate the automatic, but it's all there is anymore.


    Quote
    And I'm going to go back and look into the size difference between my old Cherokee and a modern Grand Wagoneer. The size of the GW doesn't seem 'Grand' at all. Decently optioned, big bucks in a dinky package. Certainly smaller than a Tahoe. Am I wrong???

    Again, Jeeps were never "full size" when compared to the trucks made by "The Big Three".  Interior wise, the Grand Cherokee has a lot less room, but a lot more creature comforts and technology.  But the exterior is almost the exact same size as the exterior of an old Grand Wagoneer.

    Quote
    I, like most (especially at my age), love retro. For example, I love walking in to a bar and seeing a PBR handle sitting next to 25 handles of new stuff. Guess what I ask for? So, whether it's the vehicle or just the name, Ford will cash in on the retro Bronco. Sales are sales. 'What's old is new again.' This is a very well worn cliche' for obvious reasons.

    PBR?  That stuff tastes like stump water.  Try Yuengling Traditional Lager.  ;D

    Quote
    Funny! So what started all of this? What started this entire topic?

    I'm looking for another vehicle and can't find anything to buy. Got pickups covered. Euro's are out. GM, certainly out. No Asian stuff. So right now - if I had to make a decision today - it'd be either a Charger Hellcat or a late 70's Jeep Cherokee SJ (assuming I could even find one). While Dealer's are flooded with new inventory...this is where I sit. Crazy? Sure seems so.   

    There are still some old Wagoneers out there, but the recent increase in price of nice examples has them priced right around what I paid for my 2018 in January.  A friend of mine has several in different conditions from basket-case to primo original but he is buying, not selling.  The closest I ever came to a FSJ was my M715 and it taught me all I ever need to know about Kaiser or AMC era Jeeps.
    L.Clemons

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    I am the unknown Will,
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    in heaven high and caverns deep.
    I am the Father of the War,
    Odin for you, Wotan for him,
    Wayfarer, Wanderer, beggar, king,
    numen, genius, strength and ring.

    Offline Doyle

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #45 on: August 3, 2020, 10:51:24 am »
    Thanks for your feedback and info!

    Quick thoughts:

    - I'm not a Toyota guy. Good friends own a Dealership. They know not to bother trying to sell me on them. Great vehicles, though.

    - My '79 Cherokee SJ Wide Track 'felt' full size. But numbers, in this case inches, don't lie. That is the only model of Jeep I'd ever want.

    - There is only one brand of beer in my fridge...and it's Yuengling Lager. In that context, I wasn't being quite that literal.

    So now I'll go looking for the SJ. Worst case scenario, I give up on it and have to buy the Charger HC.   

    Offline RXT

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #46 on: August 3, 2020, 05:03:11 pm »
    That just does not have the ring to it like JK does.

    The only thing that has a ring to it, is CJ (Though MB is a good runner up) What I don't get is why Jeep gives their vehicles both a name and an alpha-numeric designator when it's not necessary. Then there is "Wrangler" when it used to be "CJ-7". IMO the name doesn't go with the vehicle. "Wrangler" is another name for Cowbow. The vehicle was originally developed for the military and still holds to it's military roots. The old alpha-numeric "name" was more appropriate and had a military ring to it.

    When I started this topic...it was about the original Bronco and how Dodge finally responded with the Ramcharger.

    The Ramcharger was a response to the Chevy Blazer. When the Ramcharger was introduced in 74, the Bronco was still a small 4x4 built to compete against the Jeep CJ series. The difference was the Blazer outsold the Bronco although they were in different classes. Eventually this prompted Ford to build a full size Bronco which rejuvenated sales, but Dodge had already beat them to the punch with the Ramcharger and Trailduster, 4 yrs earlier. 

    Quote
    Was it market demand? And if so, who created it? So unless someone can verify this fact otherwise, I doubt in 1974 (when the RC finally made its' debut) any Jeep model motivated Dodge to jump in to this market segment.

    Even Jeep jumped into the fullsize SUV market. They already had the Wagoneer, but it wasn't sporty enough. A slight change to the body by deleting a pair of doors, a snazzy 70s era decal job and an all new name, Cherokee gave AMC a competitor to the Blazer/Jimmy/Ramcharger/Trailduster.

    Quote
    By 1987 the Ford Bronco looked very pedestrian. Like a full size 2 door station wagon on a truck frame. Ford was certainly not targeting Jeep buyers with this.

    But they were selling a boat load from the 78 all the way to it's demise in 96. The F series in general sold extremely well in those years with the big Bronco outselling the small Jeeps which it's smaller earlier model, designed to compete with the CJ, never really did well. Targeting the Chevy Blazer made them more money

    Quote
    There's a preoccupation with Jeep a number of you share.

    Now more so, since it's now part of the family. All vestiges of AMC are gone, long ago replaced with Mopar DNA. The CJ wasn't bad under AMC, but Mopar has improved it by light years. The Rubicon is still by far one of the best off the shelf 4x4s on the market. It's why Ford decided to target it with the Bronco

    Quote
    I said it prior, it'll be interesting to look back a year or two from now and see where the vehicle sales in this segment have gone. And again, will the Dodge Boys have sat on their hands and watched Ford crush it with the new Bronco???

    As I said before I doubt Ford is gonna crush the Wrangler with an IFS equipped truck. I would predict that sales will not go off the charts. Initial interest is currently high, and initial sales might be brisk, but once the newness has worn off, and everything settles in we will see how the Bronco really does. Toyota tried to take on the Wrangler with the 2010 FJ Cruiser. Initial interest was high and sales were brisk in the beginning, but 7 yrs later, it got cancelled. We also don't know how other factors will play out.  For example, ask yourself this question? How will GM respond to the new Bronco? What if Chevy builds a competitor to the Bronco?

    We don't have much to worry about. There is only one Jeep and it's part of Chrysler (Now if we can only get rid of Fiat)

    Ed
    If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth.

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    Offline Elwenil

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #47 on: August 3, 2020, 08:40:42 pm »
    The only thing that has a ring to it, is CJ (Though MB is a good runner up) What I don't get is why Jeep gives their vehicles both a name and an alpha-numeric designator when it's not necessary. Then there is "Wrangler" when it used to be "CJ-7". IMO the name doesn't go with the vehicle. "Wrangler" is another name for Cowbow. The vehicle was originally developed for the military and still holds to it's military roots. The old alpha-numeric "name" was more appropriate and had a military ring to it.


    Every manufacturer uses model codes.  The Ramcharger used AD and AW, the later trucks were BR or BE series, Dakotas were N, my 2500 is a DJ, the new 1500s are a DT, etc, etc.  Jeep was just lazy with the CJs and used the model code as the name.  But we aren't the only ones as GM and Furd also have model codes.  Hell, GM goes so far as to name option packages after the actual option code.
    L.Clemons

    1988 Ramcharger AW450-318EFI-NP435 4 speed-NP205 Transfer Case-Dana 60s-Braden Wormdrive Front Winch

    2018 Ram 2500HD Crew Cab 4WD 5.7L

    I am the unknown Will,
    The Anger that threatens glory and ruin:
    Lord of Storms am I,
    in heaven high and caverns deep.
    I am the Father of the War,
    Odin for you, Wotan for him,
    Wayfarer, Wanderer, beggar, king,
    numen, genius, strength and ring.

    Offline RXT

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #48 on: August 4, 2020, 03:24:45 pm »
    Every manufacturer uses model codes.

    Yes, I know every manufacturer uses model codes but thats not exactly what I meant....

    Quote
    The Ramcharger used AD and AW, the later trucks were BR or BE series, Dakotas were N, my 2500 is a DJ, the new 1500s are a DT, etc, etc.

    We didn't call these vehicles by their model codes. Yes we knew that they had them, but when we referred to a Ramcharger, we went by it's name, Ramcharger (Otherwise, this forum would be called AW100central.com)

    Quote
    Jeep was just lazy with the CJs and used the model code as the name.

    I don't believe "CJ" was a model code. I think it was the abbreviation for "Civilian Jeep" The number following "CJ" designating the version. (CJ3A, CJ5, CJ7, etc) So ubiquitous was this alpha-numeric designation in the Jeep that it became it's name. And it seemed to have continued when the Jeep was given an actual name and expanded to other models (YJ. TJ, JK, etc) It's as if you can use either the name or the two letter designator to refer to any given Jeep model.

    Quote
    But we aren't the only ones as GM and Furd also have model codes.  Hell, GM goes so far as to name option packages after the actual option code.

    Ford had been using it's own alpha-numeric naming system for years, F-150, E100, etc. GM and Dodge had similar versions, even using the same three digit number system to designate capacity. But in these cases, there wasn't a separate name as well as a letter/number system for the vehicle, like the TJ or YJ / Wrangler.

    Yes we know that GM and Dodge changed up the name/numbering system, now using four digits and dropping the C/K letters in the GM and D/W in the Dodge, further GM has given their truck the name Silverado (which was a trim package in the C/K series) and within Dodge trucks was rebranded as Ram. Even in this example, these trucks do no go by both a "code" and  "name" like Jeep.

    So as I mentioned, it doesn't make sense

    Ed
    If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth.

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    Offline Elwenil

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    Re: Will Dodge / FCA respond to the New Bronco?
    « Reply #49 on: August 4, 2020, 05:06:17 pm »
    CJ was the model name.  Just like the Wagoneer was SJ, Jeepster was a VJ, Commando was a C101, the cab forward truck was a FC, mail Jeeps were DJ, etc, etc.
    L.Clemons

    1988 Ramcharger AW450-318EFI-NP435 4 speed-NP205 Transfer Case-Dana 60s-Braden Wormdrive Front Winch

    2018 Ram 2500HD Crew Cab 4WD 5.7L

    I am the unknown Will,
    The Anger that threatens glory and ruin:
    Lord of Storms am I,
    in heaven high and caverns deep.
    I am the Father of the War,
    Odin for you, Wotan for him,
    Wayfarer, Wanderer, beggar, king,
    numen, genius, strength and ring.