Author Topic: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...**UPDATE**  (Read 3392 times)

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Offline atowinram

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Because my horse shed that looked like this after last weekend...



Looks like this as of this morning...



A straight line wind came up out of the south last night, snapped the posts, and flipped the shed onto its roof.  The good news is that the shed was a "bolt together" setup.  The wall and roof panels bolted to the posts and then to each other...kind of like a "wooden" pole shed.  All of the panels are completely salvageable.  8)  

Because everything would have to be dismantled AGAIN (this would be the 3rd time) and new posts installed in order to put it back up, we aren't going to rebuild the shed.  Instead, we are going to dismantle the entire shed and use the panels to restore some interior walls and create a pen underneath the existing bank barn.

They had the underside of the bank barn gutted about five years ago, for hay storage, but I still  remember how the partition walls were originally placed.  The I-beams and other support beams are still there, so the biggest challenge will be figuring out how to tie into them.  I'll be taking pics and measurements this week.  Once I get them posted, any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
Missy
« Last Edit: June 5, 2011, 08:30:00 pm by atowinram »
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    Offline Dodge78

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #1 on: April 17, 2011, 02:51:02 am »
    Just put a roof on that, then the next big wind you can just drag back in to place.
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    Offline comrade cheddar

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #2 on: April 17, 2011, 04:59:21 am »
    Pick up some screw in anchors. They are used for mobile homes, sheds....
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    Offline mopar65pa

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 08:01:38 am »
    Lowes/home depot you can get metal clips to fit the size of the wood used for the walls. You can then screw/nail them into the beams up top and walls, and "power fasten" (.22 calbr nail gun) or use concrete screws (tapcons)/ or expandable concrete anchors for the floor.
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    Offline atowinram

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #4 on: April 17, 2011, 10:35:33 am »
    Well, mother nature came through with another wind storm last night and finished most of the "deconstruction" for me.

    May my faithful horse shed RIP.  {pope}  :'(



    I was doing some sketches last night to figure out what salvaged panels will work best for each wall.  It looks like every piece of the shed (even the snapped posts) will get reused in one way or another, so I'm VERY happy about that.

    The biggest challenge I'm facing is incorporating wood walls and framing into a "non-wood" environment.  This area of the bank barn was redone as a loafing shed with a concrete floor many years ago.  The classic barn beams and small poles were replaced with I-beams and large support poles surrounded by concrete block.  I'm thinking the same way as you, Tony, for attaching framing to the floor.  I'm not sure how to attach the sides of the frames to the block without disturbing too much...they are solid, but old, so I don't want to do a lot of drilling or knocking out.  Securing the tops of the frames to the I-beams still has me really stumped.

    I will be building three different walls in the barn.  The first one is a long, solid wall that will go from the floor to the ceiling beam between two block supports.  I will be using the roof panels of the shed for that area.  The roof is the extremely large panel laying totally flat on the ground in the pic.  The roof was made up of 8 - 4'x12' panels built out of 5/8" exterior plywood and 2x4's run on 16" oc.  They were carriage bolted together as each panel was placed on the roof and strapped to header boards on the front and back.  If I create a proper "outside" frame that is anchored to the floor and beam, I should be able to set those panels inside of it (basically setting the roof on it's side) and attach everything to create a solid wall.

    The second wall will be a shorter one that will connect to the outside corner of a block wall on one end and have a freestanding end on the other.  A 4' man gate will be placed between that wall and the block support at the end of the long wall.  I will have to incorporate a 4x4 post into the frame of the wall to support the gate, so getting a good anchor on the floor and I-beam will be very important in that spot.  Two of the rear wall panels (which are partially stacked on top of the roof in the pic) will be used for that area.  They are 8' x 9.5" panels built from 2x4's run 24" oc with T-111 attached.  Originally, they were assembled and then lag screwed into the posts.  For this area, I'll have to create an "outer" frame and attach them inside it.  This wall will not run flush to the ceiling beam, there needs to be a gap for air flow above it, so some open framing will be needed at the top.

    The final wall will be a small "half" wall to fill in where an old metal stanchion panel was removed.  It's not an important wall, but I have to increase the height so the horses don't try to get into the feed area.  I will have to fit things around the small diameter support poles that were left behind and anchor a 2x4 to the block wall on each end.  I'll be using the scraps from the end panels for this one and probably start off by "boxing in" the poles.

    I'll be dismantling the panels tomorrow and moving the pieces into the barn to dry out.  I'll try to get measurements and pics over the next couple days then post them up.

    Thanks for the help guys!
    Missy
    « Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 12:23:30 pm by atowinram »
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    Offline gmule

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #5 on: April 17, 2011, 03:49:36 pm »
    I was reading the 3 little pigs to my one year old and decided that on the next shed you should take their advice and build it with bricks  ;D

    Offline mopar65pa

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #6 on: April 17, 2011, 06:06:36 pm »
    Drill holes in the I-beams where needed and put bolts in Missy.  ;)
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    Offline atowinram

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #7 on: April 17, 2011, 07:31:36 pm »
    I was reading the 3 little pigs to my one year old and decided that on the next shed you should take their advice and build it with bricks  ;D

    Wow Greg, you're a funny guy....NOT!  ;D

    Drill holes in the I-beams where needed and put bolts in Missy.  ;)

    That could work.  I'll have to do a couple "test drills" to see how the beams behave...they are old and well-made, so I may need a harder bit to get through them.

    As for the sides of the frames, I'm thinking that Tapcons would probably be the best choice for anchoring.  I won't use very many though...I don't want to start a "cracking" festival in that old block.

    Dismantling, measurements, and pics tomorrow!  :)
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    Offline atowinram

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #8 on: April 18, 2011, 10:40:29 pm »
    Just a quick update...

    I managed to get all of the pieces dismantled and sorted today.  Besides a 3 gallon bucket full of twisted hardware, the only casualties were part of a 2x6x10 and a small piece of 1x4...very happy about that!





    I did some quick measurements and both of the walls are about 18 feet long, so that leaves me with a lot of lumber to work with.  I also found the old floor beams running above the I-beams, so I may tie into them and "surround" the I-beam and supports for a more "finished" look. 

    Ends up that several areas of the barn floor are actually dirt, but there are small spots of concrete throughout the floor.  There is no rhyme or reason to it, so I'll have to do a little shovel work and see what I'm dealing with.

    Looks like my planning is going to take a little longer than I thought.  I have more options than I expected, but that's a good thing!!

    BTW, I was able to move the complete panels and all of the lumber into the barn tonight to get them out of the weather.  Hands down, the farm's telehandler is the coolest piece of equipment I have ever operated.  I moved the whole building, by myself, in only 2-1/2 hours!  8)





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    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #9 on: April 18, 2011, 10:59:41 pm »
    I'm thinking deep concrete footers for anchoring (like doing a fence).  if you rent a small mixer it can be done in a day with a bed load of conrete mix bags.
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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #10 on: April 19, 2011, 05:10:34 am »


    BTW, I was able to move the complete panels and all of the lumber into the barn tonight to get them out of the weather.  Hands down, the farm's telehandler is the coolest piece of equipment I have ever operated.  I moved the whole building, by myself, in only 2-1/2 hours!  8)








    Very cool aren't they?  ;D  We used to use them on jobs all the time.
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    Offline atowinram

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #11 on: April 19, 2011, 07:15:19 am »
    I'm thinking deep concrete footers for anchoring (like doing a fence).  if you rent a small mixer it can be done in a day with a bed load of concrete mix bags.

    You know, Doc...you might be onto something there.  Since I'm going to be reusing the shed's wall panels, I could set posts in the floor, anchor them to the beams, and lag the panels into them just like the original shed.  That would save a serious amount of frame work and I wouldn't have to worry about leveling things up to the beams or the floor.  As long as the posts are plumb, the wall will be correct and I can trim in the gaps as needed.   {cool}

    Very cool aren't they?  ;D  We used to use them on jobs all the time.

    I've operated skid steers and bucket tractors before, but never the telehandler.  That little bugger can really maneuver in tight spaces.  I was able to take 12' panels through a 9' doorway because of the way that thing can three point turn.  Stacking the panels was fun too.  I leaned the forks down and stood the panels up so I could push them over.  Because it uses a boom instead of arms, I was able to get them into the back of the barn right where I needed them.  Very, very cool!!  8) 



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    Offline atowinram

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #12 on: April 19, 2011, 08:01:17 pm »
    Okay guys...here are the pics of my "new" space!  :)



    There will be double dutch doors between the left of the photo and the first support post.  The "long" wall will run between the support posts.  The 4x4's will be anchored into the wooden floor beam that runs above the I-beams.



    This wall will run under the I-beam between the existing block wall and the support.  A single dutch door will be installed next to the support so I have easy access to the hydrant and the rest of the barn.



    This is the area where I need to build up the wall by about 4 feet and box-in the poles.  Since it's right next to the feed area, I may incorporate feed bins or a hay rack into it.



    See that old section of block wall that is running right in line with my planned wall? Unfortunately, I can't remove that chunk of block wall because it is tied into the 10x supporting the I-beam above it.  I'm going to try and build right up against it, then finish off the area around the posts.  If I do it right, I should be able to turn that block ledge into a salt box and make it look "right"...kind of a big "if" given my amateur construction status.  ;)

    The 4x4x12's are arriving tomorrow.  The floor is all over the place...there is some concrete, some dirt, and everything in between.  After talking to my dad tonight and doing some googling, I think that I will dig down as far as I can along the length of each wall and lay down a "mini-footer" of quik-crete between the block supports.  Then I'll use these little buggers to tie the posts into the concrete...



    What d'ya think?
    « Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 10:22:35 pm by atowinram »
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    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #13 on: April 19, 2011, 10:52:33 pm »
    Construction is not my area, but that looks pretty good.  Are you going to put threaded rod into the concrete before it sets and then secure the base with nuts after?
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    Offline atowinram

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #14 on: April 19, 2011, 11:13:19 pm »
    Hadn't thought of that, but it would save some drilling...the less of that I have to do, the better.
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    Offline ToxicDoc

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #15 on: April 19, 2011, 11:16:43 pm »
    Hadn't thought of that, but it would save some drilling...the less of that I have to do, the better.

    It's how I've seen street lights done in the past.  Not sure if you need some type of nut and wash combo on the deep end to help hold it or what.  I was thinking of avoiding the drilling too when I mentioned the idea (if you ever tried to drill into strong concrete, you'd understand - hammer drill, lead anchors, can become a long job if there are multiple posts).
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    Offline mopar65pa

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #16 on: April 19, 2011, 11:26:31 pm »
    Construction is not my area, but that looks pretty good.  Are you going to put threaded rod into the concrete before it sets and then secure the base with nuts after?
    Hadn't thought of that, but it would save some drilling...the less of that I have to do, the better.

    If you do it that way Missy use a large head carage bolt.  Head in the concrete of course.  ;)
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    Offline atowinram

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #17 on: April 19, 2011, 11:44:45 pm »
    I think you're onto something, Doc.  After giving the carriage bolt idea a little more thought, Tony, I was wondering if a longer piece of all-thread could be used similar to rebar.  I could pound it into the floor before I poured the concrete around it.  That all-thread should sneak through the cracked concrete a lot deeper than I could ever dig.  I'll just have to hacksaw it off when I'm done and remember to put my nuts and washers on it before I start pounding.  ;)

    The nice part of having these walls inside the bank barn vs. outside as part of the shed is that there is no wind to deal with and they aren't really holding anything up but themselves...anchoring the posts to the top beams and wedging in the posts will more than suffice for that.

    The drawback is that horses get into more trouble in a four-sided pen, even if they are free to come and go as they please.  They scratch their a$$es on the post edges, lean on the walls when they sleep, kick walls when they're mad at a pen-mate, and bump into things when they chase each other around.  All of these things can easily knock the bottom of a wall loose and badly shift a post.  Like my Dad said on the phone tonight, "The tension on a wedged and partially anchored post is no match for the force of a 1200# backside hitting it.  You have to find a way to anchor them to the floor...I mean REALLY anchor them". ;D

    Personally, I've had enough "shifting" in the last couple weeks to last me for a lifetime.  I'm starting to wear pretty thin and now I'm up against a pasture going green in two weeks.  If I don't get them out there, it will be colic central around the barn.  I know it will delay things a bit and cost a little more $$ to do the anchoring, but I keep telling myself that it will be worth it in the end.  Then I can spend the next several years admiring my handy work...it's definitely a space with serious potential!  ;) 

    Thanks for all the advice, guys...it's helping A LOT!!
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    Offline R!bcracker

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #18 on: April 20, 2011, 07:10:30 am »
    If you do it that way Missy use a large head carage bolt.  Head in the concrete of course.  ;)

    This sounds like someone who has done it the other way before. 8)
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    Offline atowinram

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #19 on: April 22, 2011, 07:43:58 pm »
    Okay guys...here goes nothing!  ;D

    I spent some time wedging broken posts under the beams tonight to get a sense of how things would line up.  Ends up that if I run the short wall along the I-beam and line up with the inner corner of the block support, the long wall will run right along a VERY nice wooden floor beam that goes the length of the entire planned wall and doorway.  8)



    I think anchoring to the beams is pretty much figured out.  Along the inside of the pen, each wall panel has a "header board".  Basically, it's a 2x6 that is lagged between the top of each post to provide left to right stability.  I'm going to lag through the header board, spacing the holes so they match a flat plate, slip the tall flat plate over the lag screws and finish lagging the whole thing into the post.  The flat plate is about 8" long and 2" wide, so it will simply wedge against the I-beam on the short wall, and I can lag screw the upper part of it to the wooden beam on the long wall.  That should give me a smooth inner wall inside the pen.  I can use chunks of 2x4 to build the "outside" anchor for now.  I'll worry about making those pretty when I finish off the outside of the walls...I haven't decided what I want to do there just yet.

    As for anchoring to the floor, I'm going to handle each post according to conditions.  If there is solid concrete, then wedge anchors will be used.  Assuming that I use 1/2" anchors, the minimum depth is only 2-1/4".  Hammer drilling will suck, but at least I don't have to go in very far and I should only need to rent it for the day.  If it's nothing but crap, I'll dig out what I can, pound threaded rod into the ground and poor a "mini-footer" around it.  Out of the 12 posts that I have to set, 7 will be anchors only, 2 will be done with threaded rod, and the remaining 3 posts will be a combination of both.

    The field is going green and the fence is not up (post guy can't get in because of rain), so my prime time to get them on 24/7 turnout without risking colic has passed.  I will have to turn them out for a few hours at a time and increase it over the course of a week so they don't get sick.  In other words, the new pen will have to hold them overnight as soon as it is done.  It means two more weeks indoors for them, but they'll have to deal with it.  ;)

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    Offline gmule

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #20 on: April 23, 2011, 07:15:19 am »
    There are bolts specifically made for putting into the wet concrete. They are called J bolts and the come in various sizes and lengths and are harder than carriage bolts or all thread.

    Offline PowerWagonPete

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #21 on: April 23, 2011, 08:56:57 am »
    Actually Missy, you could use some landscaping advice as well...   ;)

    http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM1716.pdf   ;D
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    Offline atowinram

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #22 on: April 23, 2011, 02:36:20 pm »
    There are bolts specifically made for putting into the wet concrete. They are called J bolts and the come in various sizes and lengths and are harder than carriage bolts or all thread.

    Those would certainly do the trick for giving me something to bolt the pedestals onto, and it would be easier to line them up with the mounting holes.  That still leaves me with one problem, I can't get the "mini-footers" far enough into the floor to stand alone.  Perhaps a couple pieces of rebar pounded into the floor before I put down the concrete would do the trick? 

    Here's an example of what I'm up against.  There is plenty of good concrete on the right.  I have some partially broken but solid concrete underneath by the post.  All I have are busted up chunks to the left.  The deeper chunks are too huge to shovel out, but not stable enough to anchor into.

    Unfortunately, jack-hammering deeper is not an option right now. The 95 year old gentleman who built that barn and gave my father-in-law his start in farming still lives in the house next door to it.  In his mind, that barn is still perfect...hearing the floor he helped pour getting hammered out would be very upsetting. 



    Actually Missy, you could use some landscaping advice as well...   ;)

    http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM1716.pdf   ;D


    Believe it or not, Pete, I actually saved that document for later use.  Their are several OLD (over 60 years) white pines surrounding the house and outbuildings.  They are getting to the point where they will need to be brought down to avoid falling onto a building.  We'll have to recreate the windbreaks afterward...and now I have an official guide on how to do that!  ;D

    Thanks again for all of the help, guys!  I think this is going to turn out great!  8)


     
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    Offline gmule

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #23 on: April 23, 2011, 03:20:53 pm »
    Explain to him that the freeze and thaw cycle are what is the hardest on concrete. All concrette will get cracks some get a lot more cracks and then it starts to crumble. It is not from poor workmanship just part of natural forces.

    Offline atowinram

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #24 on: April 23, 2011, 04:01:02 pm »
    Explain to him that the freeze and thaw cycle are what is the hardest on concrete. All concrette will get cracks some get a lot more cracks and then it starts to crumble. It is not from poor workmanship just part of natural forces.

    Add the "natural forces" of 20 head of beef cattle and you've got a winning combo for cracking! ;D
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    Offline atowinram

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #25 on: April 30, 2011, 11:32:39 pm »
    My parents were in town today, so we spent a few hours going over the barn plans, measuring, etc.  We also figured out how to handle the broken wall and the partially gutted one with the poles in it.

    After some sweeping and digging, I have what appears to be good concrete under all of the posts except two!!  8)  It's OLD concrete, so my Dad advised me to drill slowly and not to crank the wedge anchors much past the point where they first grab.

    I got a HUGE pry bar out of the tractor shop and my Dad was able to get down a good 8" into the floor where I need to pour some quikcrete under the posts.  The floor also slopes down about 4" from each end toward the center.  If I level the two mini-footers on the center posts to match the concrete level on the outer posts along that wall, they will be over 10" thick.  Smack a couple short pieces of rebar into the ground before pouring, and those posts aren't going anywhere...yippee!!!   

    While he did that, I laid out the (16) 4x4 posts for the entire inside of the barn and organized my lumber.  Looks like I'll be able to reuse all of the old posts.  Some only need the ends trimmed to work as posts on shorter walls, while the snapped ones will get trimmed down and used as door headers.  ;)

    The weather was nice today (finally), so the older gentleman who built the barn hopped on his scooter (he has crippling arthritis) and came out to see what we were up to in there.  He seemed uneasy until I told him what we were planning.  My design basically restores the partitions that were gutted from inside barn...only more "stable" than "cattle" in style.  Once he knew that, he was excited.  So excited, in fact, that he took the scooter down through the side of the pasture so he could come in the bottom entrance and pull right in where we were working! ;D

    I also turned on the water at the barn today so I could test hydrants and check for leaks.  The water has been off in that barn for over five years, so I wanted it to be on for at least a few hours before I left.  The inside hydrant was good (needs greased) and ran clear immediately.  The trough ran clear too, but the rubber hose had dry-rotted and split as soon as it was under pressure.  We shut that off at the spicket for now...I'm not using it anyway. 

    The inside hydrant on the opposite end of the barn threw muddy water then cleared out.  The outside hydrant 10' away also threw a fair amount of mud before clearing.  This had me a little concerned.    About an hour later, I discovered that the line to the outside hydrant is cracked.  With the ground being so wet, the water bubbled to the surface around the pipe and started running all over the place.  Sure enough, when I wiggled the hydrant and pushed on the pipe a little, the leak got worse.  We shut the water off for now, but I'll have to add digging up and replacing a hydrant on my list of things to do! 

    Monday afternoon I'll set those footers and start cutting posts...finally, forward progress!!!  {cool}
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    Offline atowinram

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...**UPDATE**
    « Reply #26 on: June 6, 2011, 01:57:22 pm »
    Thought I would bump this and show you guys the progress in the barn!  :)

    Footers for the "dirt" portion of the floor...



    Posts set and anchored...



    All of the framing up...





    Got the inside sheeting up yesterday...





    Been getting some fence work done as well...



    There's still a lot of work to do, but it's good enough to put up some temporary gates and let the horses use it while I work around them!  I'm hoping to get them moved this weekend...keep your fingers crossed!  8)

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    Offline cjohhny

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...**UPDATE**
    « Reply #27 on: June 6, 2011, 02:26:54 pm »
     {cool}
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    Offline Gohot

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...
    « Reply #28 on: June 6, 2011, 03:57:14 pm »
    Construction is not my area, but that looks pretty good.  Are you going to put threaded rod into the concrete before it sets and then secure the base with nuts after?
    While the concrete is fresh poured and then floated (rough troweled) you need to put in 'lag bolts' Lag bolts come from Lowes or Ace or ? heak most material or masonry yards. Get some foutrteen inches long x 1/2 or 5/8 put two in the location where you will use the simpson straps. Stuff them in the concrete up to the threads, leave about two inches of threads above the concrete (the concrete's still wet mind you) and place the simpson over the exposed bolt threads and let them dry. You don't want to push the simpsons into the concrete, instead they rest on the wet concrete so's that you can simply align the lag bolt thread/nut into the simpson later after it's dried. For any masonry or concrete coaching, I can be reached at [email protected] and then I'll give you my ph #. I retired from 25 years of comercial masonry. If you werent so far away I'd come help you with your project, just for something to kill boredom ...lol
    Slow awake........fast asleep..

    Offline atowinram

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    Re: Okay guys, going to need some construction advice...**UPDATE**
    « Reply #29 on: June 17, 2011, 07:26:39 pm »
    Tackled the hay rack outside of the entrance today.  Kind of an interesting design...the rack holds up the overhang of the roof so there are no posts for animals or equipment to run into.  It can't be removed, so I decided to clean it up and see if it could be used.  Oh, hell to the yeah!!  See the openings above the block walls?  Now I can throw hay down from the barn floor straight into the racks...SWEET!!!   8)

    Here's what I started with this morning...



    Here's what I had as of this evening...

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