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Offline fast59

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king coilover ?????
« on: June 30, 2013, 12:36:23 pm »
Hi guys I have my Dads 1982 dodge clubcab 4x4 now and i am going to build up in his memory, I have purchased a 4link front conversion for it with duel rate 14 inch king coilovers. My question is i have been reading a lot about them and mostly everything is rock crawling related. I want this to be the ultimate dd hunting play machine. I am not really understanding what the angles they are to be mounted for&aft other then the break over angle when the suspension is fully compresed.

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    Offline swampDONKEY

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #1 on: June 30, 2013, 05:42:37 pm »
    It depends on a lot of things. how long are the links they gave you in the kit, mounting brackets, and what exactly you want to run over with the truck. Check out this xtreme 4x4 episode  4link 101  it covers basic 4 link operations and a little on coil over setups, there is another episode just on tuning/adjusting spring rates I just cant find it at the moment.  as it goes for angles building a 4 link is a good read and practice for building a 4 link setup that pertains to your' needs. if you have any other questions feel free to pm me.
    Mopar or No Car.....that is the question.
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    Offline fast59

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #2 on: June 30, 2013, 10:06:03 pm »
    Thanks SwampDONKEY, i will check that out. I have read the coilover bible at pirate 4x4 it cleared up some things. The kit i purchased is from offroad design and Link's are 30 inches with out any inserts welded in or the johny joints installed.

    Offline swampDONKEY

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #3 on: July 3, 2013, 11:34:41 pm »
    hmmm 30" seems pretty short. Are you wanting to lift the truck at all? I know for the 8" lift I wanted to put the links around a 10* slope to the frame which gave me a length of 51" links. im going to be using 44" but that's with a lot of tweaking to the placement of the link mounts. another thing that's good to play around with is the 4 link calculator from pirate 4x4  4 link calculator

    a good quote I found
    Quote
    - try to make your links parallel when veiwed from the side
    - make them as long as you reasonably can
    - make them as flat as you reasonably can
    - make the roll axis as high as you reasonably can
    - vertical separation should be 6" or more. More especially for more horsepower and/or bigger tires.
    - make the triangulated portion 40 degrees or more for decent lateral control.
    Mopar or No Car.....that is the question.
    79 ramcharger [4 link]
    78 w150 step side short box twin turbo 360/np435
    68 plymouth satellite [undercover]

    Offline fast59

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    Re: king coilovers & 4link
    « Reply #4 on: December 22, 2013, 01:43:53 pm »
    Ok guys what do you think..
    « Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 01:46:18 pm by fast59 »

    Offline impish

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #5 on: December 22, 2013, 03:15:25 pm »
    doing something similar... but a desert/street build  but probably keep the leafs for a while
    89 W350 rebuild underway...4 link coilovers, 6.1 hemi, 5 speed glass fenders, bed

    Offline Mike Barf

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #6 on: December 22, 2013, 04:08:50 pm »
    I think you need to drop it off at my place for me to "safety test" that thing when you are done.
    88 RC, 360 auto 4x4 stock

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    Offline fast59

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #7 on: December 23, 2013, 07:06:26 pm »
    Safety test eh sounds like i wont get it back.Lol

    Offline Mike Barf

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #8 on: December 23, 2013, 10:30:18 pm »
    nobody said prototyping was easy  ;D
    88 RC, 360 auto 4x4 stock

     welcome to the service dept.
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    Offline impish

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #9 on: December 24, 2013, 12:12:49 am »
    what rate springs did they reccomend ?
    89 W350 rebuild underway...4 link coilovers, 6.1 hemi, 5 speed glass fenders, bed

    Offline rb70383

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #10 on: December 24, 2013, 05:59:00 am »
    Looks good. No tire contact with the springs when flexed? Any frame mount pics?
    89 RC 5.2 TBI
    85 D350 Crewcab

    Offline fast59

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #11 on: December 24, 2013, 12:31:05 pm »
    I can post some more pics, and spring rate I think is 300/350

    Offline dodgerammit

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #12 on: December 24, 2013, 04:07:58 pm »
    Post tsome of the passenger side axle and how you worked around the factory spring mount.  :) Looking to do a coil conversion front on my cummins project. Keep it up!
    When you find yourself in a hard spot, pray first, then select 4-LO
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    Offline impish

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #13 on: December 25, 2013, 04:49:33 pm »
    my plan is to have the axle mounts far out as possible..probably mount the shocks for now then  when get the $$$ for coilovers...

    did you make the mounts at axle?
    89 W350 rebuild underway...4 link coilovers, 6.1 hemi, 5 speed glass fenders, bed

    Offline swampDONKEY

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #14 on: January 1, 2014, 03:27:52 pm »
    Looks good man! does your' steering shaft hit the coil over when it droops? just looks like it may be in the way. very cool thoe. nice to see some one else linking a RC  ;D
    Mopar or No Car.....that is the question.
    79 ramcharger [4 link]
    78 w150 step side short box twin turbo 360/np435
    68 plymouth satellite [undercover]

    Offline fast59

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #15 on: January 2, 2014, 08:05:05 pm »
    Lol, Its a club cab not an RC. Ya steering has to be split and a borgeson joint put in middle to clear coil. I haven't forgot about more pics just haven't had the chance. Ill get some on this weekend.

    Offline fast59

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #16 on: January 3, 2014, 01:47:42 am »
    Some more pics for you guys.

    Offline impish

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #17 on: January 4, 2014, 11:08:22 pm »
    do you have 1 1/4 heims?
    89 W350 rebuild underway...4 link coilovers, 6.1 hemi, 5 speed glass fenders, bed

    Offline REB

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #18 on: January 5, 2014, 03:13:01 am »
    Fast I agree with swamps suggestion in watching extreme 4x4. Was a great show. Also I would contact King and talk to the tech guys they should be able to help you and the link bars  who ever sold them to you should have the number to the tech line at the manufacture. And obviously you are completely adjustable, so a one time turn of the spanner and wrench you arent going to get it right, and if I remember in that episode of extreme it Ian said that it even takes the pros days if not weeks to tune the suspention to the driving style and the truck it self.  Just the shocks will take a half or full day
    Good Luck,
    REB

    Offline fast59

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #19 on: January 5, 2014, 12:42:40 pm »
    The ends on the link bars are 2inch johnny joints and tracbar is 3/4 fk heims. Thanks Reb i have watched every vid and have read every link i can get my hands on. I got the kit from offroad design and Chris has been awesome with his help. He sent me an awesome set up sheet which clear up a lot of confusion ive come across off the internet. I should post it here for others looking for the correct way of setting up the 4link.

    Offline dodgerammit

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #20 on: January 5, 2014, 06:47:39 pm »
    YesYesYES!
    When you find yourself in a hard spot, pray first, then select 4-LO
    Radio Flyer-84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer
    85 crew project --Intercooled 93 Cummins, 518, D70
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    Offline Boons

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #21 on: January 5, 2014, 08:46:27 pm »
    Reason you didn't go with a triangulated setup?
    1993 Dodge W-250 "Ronnie"
    CTD/Getrag 360/205/60 Detroit/AAM 10.5 Detroit/40" Trail grapplers

    Makin sparks and breakin parts.

    Offline fast59

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #22 on: January 6, 2014, 02:20:05 pm »
    not enough space

    Offline rb70383

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #23 on: January 9, 2014, 07:05:18 am »
    I wouldnt mind a copy of the set up sheet. I would have thought the frame end link ends are too close, but I have never built a 4 link so I dont really know.
    89 RC 5.2 TBI
    85 D350 Crewcab

    Offline fast59

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #24 on: January 9, 2014, 07:30:24 pm »
    The brackets came already assembled and if you look at anything mostly designed for the street thats how they are.

    Offline fast59

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #25 on: January 9, 2014, 07:42:01 pm »
    This is what was given to me from the guys at Offroad design. It helped to clear up a lot of confusion I had read off the internet. Hope it can help you guys out also.

    Let’s begin with some terminology.  Keep in mind this stuff is a bit of a
    brain twister and you can fully expect to wear this document out reading and
    re-reading it.  Researching other setup instructions will often give you the
    same info in another form which will help you learn too.  This takes a
    little work.
    Target ride height:  height you want the truck to sit at when it’s loaded
    and ready to wheel.  AKA “static ride height”.

    Full Droop: axle position when the axle is hanging all the way out or
    dropped all the way down.  With a 14” travel shock, there will be 14” of
    shock shaft showing.

    Full bump:  Axle position when the suspension is fully compressed.  At this
    point the shocks will be collapsed all the way and the bumpstops should be
    as compressed as they can get.  Also known as “full stuff”.

    Coil adjuster nut: The big nut that runs up and down the threaded shock body
    and presses on top of the coil stack.

    Combined spring rate: The effective spring rate of the two coil springs when
    they’re stacked on top of one another on a coilover shock.  With identical
    spring rates top and bottom the combined rate will be ½ the rate of one
    spring.  250 over 250 will give a 125#/in spring rate.  If the springs are
    different rates top and bottom use this equation to find combined rate:
    1/top rate + 1/bottom rate = 1/combined rate  (easy with a calculator with a
    “1/x” button)
    Or use:
    Combined = (x*y) / (x+y)
    Common examples for a GM truck:
    250/250 = 125 250/300 = 136
    250/350 = 146 300/350 = 162
    350/350 = 175

    Slider stop nuts:  The thin nuts that stop the coil divider/slider from
    traveling up the shock body.  The slider hitting the stop nuts will “lock
    out” the upper spring and make the suspension see only the lower springs’
    rate.  See the slider stop nut setting section below for more details.

    Dual rate springs: This term is used improperly a lot.  Two springs stacked
    on top of one another will work at a single combined spring rate till one of
    them is made to stop traveling.  It doesn’t matter if the two springs are
    the same rate or two different rates, they will combine to one single rate.
    You can use the equations above to see this effect.  The only proper use of
    the term “dual rate” is when you are using the slider stop nuts to stop the
    upper spring from moving and thus transition from the combined rate of 2
    springs in the stack to the single rate of the bottom spring in the stack.
    There are more details in the stop nut settings section below.

    Ride Load:  the weight on the spring stack with the truck just sitting on
    the springs.  Aka “static load”

    Zero Preload position: Install both coil springs on the shock body.  With
    the suspension at full droop dial the main coil adjuster nut till it just
    touches the top of the coil stack.  This is your zero preload position.
    Record the measurement from the top of the adjuster to the top of the
    threaded body.  From this point you will add preload to the spring stack to
    raise your ride height.

    Now let’s actually start working.
    Setting Ride Height:  There are 2 ways to pick a ride height for your
    coilover system on your truck;  one is minimum height, the other is a set
    “lift” height. 
    To set it up with minimum height you’ll start with the axle fully linked and
    push the axle up to where it runs into something solid.  Chances are you
    will end up with the top of the diff hitting a crossmember or the frame,
    maybe the steering hits the frame, maybe it’s even the front driveshaft
    hitting the exhaust system or tire clearance to a set component.  Then you
    decide if it’s worth it to change your contact point.  Sometimes changing
    the panhard bar length helps clearance, maybe you re-work whatever component
    is hitting, etc.  At some point you’re going to come to a part you don’t
    want to change and that will set your full bump position for the suspension.
    That is your totally bottomed point and bumpstops should be set to make sure
    that everything absolutely stops before any damage occurs.  Your ride height
    is when the axle is 7” (or roughly mid shock travel) down from this point.
    To set the upper coilover mounts, put the axle up to the bumpstops (full
    bump position) and collapse the shock fully with the lower coil cup
    installed.  The top of the shock will be at the elevation it needs to be
    mounted.  Allowances may need to be made in the shock mounting and bumpstop
    settings for things like tip wear on a hydraulic bumpstop.  Lighter vehicles
    can bottom out on the shocks but this tends to bend mounting bolts so a
    proper bumpstop is preferable.

    To set the truck at a specific lift height, set your frame and axle the
    distance apart you desire and this is your ride height setting.  On a
    straight axle GM the stock measurement from the bottom of the frame to the
    top of the axle tube is approximately 8.5”.  So if you want a 6” lift, set
    that gap at around 14.5”.  Cycle the axle up from there by approximately 7”
    and make sure the axle is not going to hit anything besides the bumpstops
    when it bottoms out.  At this full bottom out position collapse the shock
    fully against the coil cup and the top of the shock will be at the elevation
    above the frame where it should be mounted.

    In general you’re going to want the coilover shock riding roughly centered
    in the shock’s travel.  For a 14” travel shock you should set your ride
    height to where there is about 7” of shock shaft showing.  I’m using words
    like “about” and “roughly” on purpose here, the coil retainer cup will use
    up about 3/8” of travel and you don’t have to be super precise with this
    ride height at this point.  If you’re within ½” you’re close enough for
    basic setup. 

    Spring selection and setup:
    Start your initial ride height set up by installing your springs on the
    shock and droop the suspension fully.  With the axle hanging on the shocks,
    dial your coil spring adjuster nut down to where it just does put some
    tension on the coil spring pack.  This is your zero preload point.  Record
    the distance from the top of the adjuster nut to the top end of the threads
    on your shock.

    Now put the truck on the ground and measure how much shock shaft is showing.
    Subtract that from total shock travel and that’s how much your spring stack
    compressed from full droop to ride load.

    ZERO PRELOAD THREAD DISTANCE:
    ZERO PRELOAD COMPRESSION TO RIDE LOAD:

    At this point your truck should be sitting lower than ride height by some
    amount.  The specific amount is more of a tuning detail but you should be
    sitting ½” to 2” lower than your target height.  This will allow you to add
    preload (dial the adjuster nut tighter) to bring the truck up to your target
    height.  If the truck is sitting too high with zero preload, you cannot
    lower the truck since dialing the adjuster nut up will allow the coil stack
    to come loose at full droop.  In actual use this could lead to the coil
    stack falling apart and jamming up in the mounts.  You don’t want to do this
    so don’t run less than zero preload.

    If your truck is sitting taller than your target ride height at zero
    preload, you need softer springs.  You can use the technique below to find
    your new rate or this could be a good time to give us a call and we can
    recommend a new rate.
    To find your proper starting spring rate you divide the weight on the spring
    stack (static load) by the desired compression travel to get to target ride
    height.
    Compression travel to ride height on a known spring pack can tell you
    exactly how much weight is sitting on the coil stack.  Multiply your
    compression to ride height by your combined spring rate and the answer is
    the weight on the stack.
    For example: 6” compression with a 175# combined rate (350/350 springs) is
    6” x 175#/in = 1050#.
    You really want the truck to sit lower so that it compresses 8” under the
    static load so you need lighter springs.  1050/8 = 131.25#/in.  This is
    close to a 125# rate that you would get from a 250/250 coil stack.

    Coilover springs don’t settle at all so there’s no need to drive the truck
    before doing ride height measurements.  Coilover springs are extrememly
    durable compared to the leaf springs many people are used to.  They won’t
    change rate and should not settle or change free length over time so what
    you have when you first install them is what you will have years down the
    road.  When changing springs you will need to wiggle the truck around to
    overcome the sticking friction of the shock and we do this by rocking the
    truck side to side by hand and letting it settle (or sometimes forcing it to
    settle with our hands) back to center.

    One wild card in this spring selection equation is the shock’s gas pressure.
    Gas pressure will take load from the spring stack which can make a
    difference in spring selection on lighter vehicles.  On a heavy truck it’s
    not too big a concern but should still be considered.  Typical load taken
    from gas pressure is 80-120#.  Exact load carried by the gas pressure can be
    calculated by finding the area of the shock shaft (pi *radius^2) and
    multiplying by the gas pressure at ride height.  Area of a 7/8” shaft is
    .601 square inches and at 150psi this will carry 90 lb of load.  This load
    will need to be subtracted from the total load on the shock for spring
    calculations.  This gas pressure load is obviously greater when running a
    dual shock system like a coilover and bypass shock.  For more details see
    the section on gas pressure settings below.  Just make sure your shocks are
    gassed when doing ride height/spring rate calculations.

    Coil slider stop nut adjustment:  The slider stop nuts are the two thin nuts
    on the body of the shock that stay inside the coil spring.  The purpose is
    to stop the coil separator from sliding up the body of the shock which will
    make the coil stack transition from both springs compressing to just the
    lower spring compressing.  This makes the rate transition from the combined
    spring rate to the single rate of the lower spring.  This is why coilover
    spring packs are sometimes referred to as “dual rate”.  The dual rate term
    has nothing to do with the fact that you could have 2 different rate springs
    on the coil, it’s because you can block the upper spring out of the equation
    making the lower spring the only one active.

    For initial setup, keep the coil slider stop nuts  within 2-3” of the main
    adjustment nut.  This will keep them from engaging essentially making them
    act as if they are not there.  Once spring rates and ride heights are set,
    you can play with the stop nuts to add a little bottom out resistance, a
    little body roll control and/or adjust the articulation balance from front
    to rear.  Typically you would want the slider to engage in the last couple
    inches of the suspension’s travel and the easiest way to set this is to just
    articulate the suspension till you are showing approximately 1.5” (for
    example) of shock shaft and measure where the coil slider is riding on the
    shock.  Then droop the suspension and adjust the slider stop nuts to this
    position and twist it up again to test your setting.  This engagement point
    can be calculated but this is the simplest way to set it without a bunch of
    brain twisting.

    Gas Pressure: Your shock reservoir has a dividing piston in it to separate
    the gas charge from the oil.  The high pressure gas keeps the oil from
    cavitating (boiling and foaming) so that the damping remains consistent.
    The shocks must be charged before the vehicle is driven.  A minimum is a
    150psi charge installed when the vehicle is sitting at ride height.
    Charging the shock when the suspension is fully drooped is more consistent
    and will give a higher gas pressure.  Higher pressures are important for
    more aggressive use with a coilover to push the oil through the valve stack
    on a hard compression hit.  We run roughly 200psi at full droop in our Ultra
    4 car and many vehicles run more for that type of use.
    It’s not a bad idea to put a charge of roughly 10 psi in the shock when
    you’re cycling the suspension just to make sure that the piston moves
    properly with the oil level as the shaft moves in and out.
    Nitrogen is the gas of choice for the gas charge in your shocks.  Honestly,
    we’ve used CO2 for years with no bad effects in recreational vehicles since
    it’s much more common than nitrogen shock gassing systems.  Often a
    motorcycle shop will have a nitrogen charging system and could charge your
    shocks for a minimum fee.  In a pinch shop air is better than no charge at
    all.  Just purge the shock when you can and replace the air with a dry gas.
    You can use a standard regulator gauge and tire filling type hose to set the
    pressure with good results.  Set the regulator to your desired pressure then
    fill the reservoir just like you would a tire and you will hear the gas stop
    flowing after several seconds.  Pull the chuck off quickly to keep leakage
    to a minimum and you’re done.
    A more accurate method is to use a dedicated shock charging tool like the
    one built by King.  This will have an accurate high pressure gauge and a
    zero loss fill fitting for the most accurate gas charge.
    DO NOT try to install your shocks at any suspension position other than full
    droop when there is a gas charge installed.  There is enough force there
    that it’s difficult to install them and will smash your fingers pretty good
    if they get away from you.  Install them at full droop.

    Summary (most important details):
    Mount your shocks to run at approximately mid travel at ride height.  Make
    sure nothing collides at full bump besides the bumpstops.

    You want a minimum of ½” of preload on your spring stack front and rear.
    Most setups use up to 2” of preload.  If you have more than your desired
    preload amount build a stiffer spring stack.  Less preload than your desired
    amount requires a softer spring stack.

    Gas your shocks to a minimum of 150psi at ride height and never run them
    without gas pressure.


    Chris Holick
    Engineer, Research and Development

    Offroad Design
    484 County Road 113
    Carbondale, CO 81623
    970-945-7777
    offroaddesign.com


    Offline Direct Action Motorsports

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #26 on: January 10, 2014, 10:10:03 am »
    not enough space
    Reason you didn't go with a triangulated setup?
    You can do a triangulated setup if you make the space. My buddy Cody Bullock did his truck with a long triangulated setup and a wild steering set up to eliminate bump steer. Sam at Samco Fab built it for him.  Here are the links.

    http://samcofabrication.com/index.php?q=projects&g2_itemId=980

    http://www.fourwheeler.com/features/1108or-1975-dodge-w100-mighty-mopar/
    « Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 10:18:26 am by Goobtech Racing »
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    Offline fast59

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #27 on: January 10, 2014, 07:44:38 pm »
    I seen that article its actually one of the inspiration's for going with this type of suspension. I am looking forward to read on the build up though.  Thanks man.

    Offline impish

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #28 on: January 28, 2014, 01:06:05 pm »
    where did you get the brackets from?
    89 W350 rebuild underway...4 link coilovers, 6.1 hemi, 5 speed glass fenders, bed

    Offline fast59

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #29 on: January 29, 2014, 07:36:10 pm »
    It all came from OffRoad Design excellent guys to deal with.

    Offline madmax_087

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #30 on: April 19, 2014, 02:51:57 pm »
    Wow dude, really cool build! Glad to see someone else is doing this! I am planning on linking my '92, just like Cody Bullock's Dodge that Goobtech linked to. Sam's work on that truck is my inspiration as well!

     Why are you running a panhard type bar on a true four link? Isn't that unnecessary?

     
    My buddy Cody Bullock did his truck with a long triangulated setup and a wild steering set up to eliminate bump steer.

    I love Cody's steering, that truck is so official! Do solid axles actually experience bump steer though?
    "When a man knows how to live amid danger, he is not afraid to die. When he is not afraid to die, he is, strangely, free to live. " -William O. Douglas

    Offline Mike Barf

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #31 on: April 19, 2014, 09:16:16 pm »
    bump steer is an effect of steering unit geometry, castor, camber, toe, along with the angles that the steering components sit in relation to each other, and the chassis.
    88 RC, 360 auto 4x4 stock

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    Offline fast59

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #32 on: April 20, 2014, 04:03:52 pm »
    have to run a tracbar.Thats what keeps the vehicle from shifting side to side.

    Offline EY8s

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #33 on: April 20, 2014, 09:08:12 pm »
    have to run a tracbar.Thats what keeps the vehicle from shifting side to side.

    in a non-triangulated link setup (or triangulated with less than 40 degrees of spread in the triangulated links) you need a track bar or panhard bar (same thing) to keep the axle located.  ideally you want the front panhard bar (trackbar) to run parallel with the draglink and be the same length so they'll follow the same arch path which helps eliminate bump steer.  non triangulated rear link setups running a trackbar should have it parallel to the axle at static height.

    getting ready to link my YJ. 3 link front with panhard and double triangulated rear (upper and lower link spread 40+ degrees) = no trackbar.  I'm going with Fox 2.5's and will be starting with Eibach 200/300 rears and 250/350 fronts.  I also plan on using Fox 2.0 2" air bumps as well.

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    Offline rccrawler

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #34 on: March 27, 2018, 11:49:57 am »
    Nice build dude! How does it handle? I plan to link my 84 d150.  Where is the truck now?

    Offline jungle

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    Re: king coilover ?????
    « Reply #35 on: March 27, 2018, 05:08:28 pm »
    Sweet build!!!!!
    Jim
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