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Author Topic: closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440  (Read 5931 times)

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Offline vogey

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closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440
« on: May 3, 2011, 05:36:30 PM »
ran across a good set of closed chamber heads with fresh valve job, guides ect for $200 how much would they raise the comp on my 77 440 with open chamber heads? would i be able to get away with this as a quick way to pick a few ponys?
cant beat the song of a well tuned 440 spinnin 6k through the pit

Offline mopar65pa

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Re: closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440
« Reply #1 on: May 3, 2011, 06:20:56 PM »
 :o $200 that's cheap!

They will help for sure.  ;)
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Offline 340SHORTY

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Re: closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440
« Reply #2 on: May 3, 2011, 07:30:27 PM »
are they small valve 516s or are the large valve 915s. I had a set of 516s on my 383 in fell on its face at the 1000' mark in the 1320. 
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Offline vogey

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Re: closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440
« Reply #3 on: May 3, 2011, 07:55:53 PM »
well actually there is both sets on there the 516's are fresh for 200 and the 915's are hot tanked and beed blasted but looks like no valves or springs for $150 would any of the valvetrain on the open chamber heads swap over? mainly valves? would get new springs, so any idea what the comp would end up being with the swap?
cant beat the song of a well tuned 440 spinnin 6k through the pit

Offline 79Rammer

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Re: closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440
« Reply #4 on: May 3, 2011, 09:43:19 PM »
I think the general rule is about 3/4 of a point raise in compression. It varies a little depending on the actual measured chamber sizes of your original heads and the closed chambered ones.
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Offline 340SHORTY

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Re: closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440
« Reply #5 on: May 3, 2011, 10:23:27 PM »
Read my post,,,,, it says all.   the springs will interchange...
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Offline 85 Royal SE Prospector

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Re: closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440
« Reply #6 on: May 4, 2011, 01:11:47 AM »
are they small valve 516s or are the large valve 915s. I had a set of 516s on my 383 in fell on its face at the 1000' mark in the 1320. 
Pretty much. The old motors benefit from the new heads, the new motors benefit from the old heads. (compression is often too low with the opens in the later motors and the older motors have enough compression they can lose some in favor of better flow)

Now he has valve work done to them. What kind? Has it had big valves installed? Hardened seats? Porting work?
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Offline 79Rammer

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Re: closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440
« Reply #7 on: May 4, 2011, 08:38:11 AM »
Pretty much. The old motors benefit from the new heads, the new motors benefit from the old heads. (compression is often too low with the opens in the later motors and the older motors have enough compression they can lose some in favor of better flow)

{agree}
A stock 440 in a Ramcharger probably won't be doing much racing either so the point at which a 516 head stops flowing might not be that noticeable.
68 Dodge Charger 383 auto
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Offline DODGEBOYS

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Re: closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440
« Reply #8 on: May 4, 2011, 11:59:33 AM »
EDIT for thinking of one thing and writing something else / what dumbass l am


l,ll explain what l was thinking one of these days
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Offline cragdweller

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Re: closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440
« Reply #9 on: May 4, 2011, 09:37:28 PM »
the 1967 closed chamber heads CANT be used on 1974 and up 440,s with a positive deck height / the closed chamber heads require a negative or zero deck height motor / my 1974 H block motor has special offset wedge pistons to run the 1967 - 915 HP heads / you either need custom pistons or shave yours down to a zero deck height

What!!??

Which 1974 and up 440 had a stock piston dome that came above deck height?!!

Lots of people have put 915 close chambered heads on low compression 74-78 440s with no problems...
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Offline Furyschild

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Re: closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440
« Reply #10 on: May 6, 2011, 07:13:36 AM »
What!!??

Which 1974 and up 440 had a stock piston dome that came above deck height?!!

Lots of people have put 915 close chambered heads on low compression 74-78 440s with no problems...
Sorry ,
but I agree with Dodgeboys on this one ,
The pistons dome really isnt the issue ,
It could be a flat top piston and still have clearance issues with a closed chambered head .
Point being as valves are closer with the closed chamber heads .
You cannot just slap a set on a engine that previously had open chamber heads.
Depending on the 440 from 74-78 you either where running 9:1 or 10:1 comp pistons
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Offline 79Rammer

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Re: closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440
« Reply #11 on: May 6, 2011, 08:38:39 AM »
I have heard of problems using closed chamber heads on the 68-70 383 engines but not the later 440's. Those pistons are so far down in the hole you need a yardstick to measure it.  ;)

The true compression ratio of the later 440's "might" have been 8 to 1 on a good engine back then. To get some improvement a closed chamber head and a short duration, high lift cam would help out a lot.



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Offline Brutalowner

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Re: closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440
« Reply #12 on: May 6, 2011, 10:15:53 AM »
I think 79Rammer is pretty darn close on this one. We just did this exact swap two weeks ago. 74 motorhome 440, swapped a set of 915 heads. after taking a cc count of the chambers (heads has been milled .020") and using the Summit calculator on line, it showed 9.991 with the Fel-pro .039 gasket. Really woke up the engine. We have to run preimum fuel, but can run 36* of timing with no ping, I dont recall what cam was put in years ago, but it was something like .474" lift. I dont think hell or high water could make the valves touch the pistons, as far down in the hole as they are.
 .020" off the deck of the heads is alot, generally speaking, so you will need to cc the chambers to find out exactly what you have.
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Offline 340SHORTY

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Re: closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440
« Reply #13 on: May 6, 2011, 01:07:45 PM »
the valves in a set of 516 or 915 closed chamber heads are not any closer to the the pistons than a set of 906s, 346s 452s open chamber heads in stock form....
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Offline cragdweller

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Re: closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440
« Reply #14 on: May 6, 2011, 10:43:19 PM »
Sorry ,
but I agree with Dodgeboys on this one ,
The pistons dome really isnt the issue ,
It could be a flat top piston and still have clearance issues with a closed chambered head .
Point being as valves are closer with the closed chamber heads .
You cannot just slap a set on a engine that previously had open chamber heads.
Depending on the 440 from 74-78 you either where running 9:1 or 10:1 comp pistons

None of the 74-78 440s had anywhere near that compression ratio.  The pistons were way down in the hole and there would be no valve clearance issues with closed chambered head.  This is a common swap.
1975 Plymouth Trail Duster Sport.  440/727, 203/205 doubler, Dana 60 front and 70 rear.  Still under construction...

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Offline NMike

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Re: closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440
« Reply #15 on: May 9, 2011, 11:38:02 PM »
70's lo-po 440 engines all had very low ~8:1. swapping to the closed chamber heads helps a little bit.

i swapped 915's onto my 78 440. at the same time i installed a very mild cam. the extra duration dropped the pressure slightly while the closed chamber raised it slightly.

ran on cheap gas ALL THE TIME. no pinging at all.


Offline vogey

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Re: closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2011, 09:09:29 AM »
in case anyone was wondering i passed on heads figured with work they would only be couple hundred short of the stealth 440 alum. heads.
cant beat the song of a well tuned 440 spinnin 6k through the pit

Offline minnesota guy

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Re: closed chamber 440 heads on open chamber 440
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2011, 08:27:22 PM »
My buddy and I sapped some 516's on a 78 facotry shortblock that Mancini Racing was selling in the early 90's...when 440 and 440 short blocks were still left over from Mopar....The pistons sat way, way down in the hole....They in real terms were 7.5 :1 at best if you had unshaved heads!

The closed chamber heads hepled...but not too much difference....valve sizes not as big as 906's but more velocity flow...They didnt flow that much different anyway stock to stock....915 heads--were on all 1967 440 motors....including New Yorker....so many had the small valves....(I had a set and punched them out)

Problem....with todays gas--you need hardened seats or they will get ruined quickly....seat will get sunk in the heads w/o the lead cushion.......so they are no good w/o that work done to them..You wil ruin them....same with 906's.....

so...if you use the 915 or 516's for street...you need the hardened seats....then you need valve job, and maybe bigger valves if you wish....money.....money...You could get some 452 open chamber heads and mill them down to get chambers volume down....

my 915 heads --even though closed chambers....still had large chambers 82 ccs in mine..so they are not automatically reduced..........ALum heads may be the way to go...Best thing for those late 440s is new pistons that come up to the deck....but more money...

 

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