Seems to share an oddly coincidental sentiment as some members here. Interesting.

Coincidental to be sure....but so far I haven't heard of any of us here opening up on any police officers....or anyone else for that matter....I guess this is your implied "quick jab and sit back" for this topic....oh yeah, the guy was your age and by the spelling of his last name....he might have been what you refer to as a "pollock"....

Paul

The officers were responding to a "Domestic" call....the information supplied in the article does not say who placed the call....may have been the guy, may have been someone else....based on what was reported as happening once they reach the door, I would speculate that the guy did the call, got situated and waited for the cops to arrive and quickly shot as many as he could....some people snap and this guy is a prime example....a friend of his said he was worried about his right to keep his guns....the friend didn't say he called him and said, "hey man, the cops are coming to get my guns and I'm going to die today"....also according to the reporting, this guy had a history of trouble....even the neighbors mentioned that based on his personality, that staying away from him was a good thing....

You're close to libel....I don't remember anyone making the statement that they would kill a police officer....I do recall some not being satisfied with the extra service some departments have provided to them....but none that would cause me to believe that an impending carnage was about to unfold....

Coming into my house to take what guns?....departments have raided the wrong residence before and it will, unfortunately, happen again....on something as simple as the wrong street number or "Street vs. Avenue"....the post office delivers the mail to wrong houses all the time....guns, what guns?....

Sorry, you did say they were coming after my arms....that is another matter altogether....

Paul

maybe he got one of these for his birthday, and it set him off.



http://www.chiaobama.com/

Bullcrap.  Pat is right.  I too recall plenty of "they ain't takin mine".  Every right wing guy that bitched about his fears out loud forgot that the kid standing next to him had a fuzzy concept of when that time happens.  Hidden agendas, ammo regulation, semi-bans, conceal bans; all the crap you hear in any chat room or bar.  All the rhetoric the anti- o clan flings has an effect.  In this case it's dead police officers.  All those s heads that stood next to this kid spewing their "pro American" agenda need to OWN IT.  Obviously it wasn't one of us but the same mentality exists here.  Think about it next time that "kid" is hanging out on the fringe of the fire circle.  PLEASE.

This kid thought socialists were coming for his guns.  Plain and simple.  He couldn't see the difference between democracy and socialist police state because those that had influence on him probably couldn't either.  Denial of truth for the purpose of political agenda just got good honest protectors of our rights killed.  Inexcusable and unforgivable.

 I'm willing to entertain anything that will cool my heels on this.  Come on; tell me this is an incident and not a symptom.  I'm listening.

I don't know who slapped you Josh but I gave it back to you. I also agree with both you and Pat. Several people on this and other sites I visit have spewed forth that when the day arrives that "they" come for our guns they can have them when pried from our cold dead fingers.

I realize this kid had a distorted outlook on reality. I realize that the officers were not coming after his guns. I do not condone what he did to those officers.

But, the point is, he believed they were and did exactly what several people have stated they would do. He, in his mixed up reality, saw a threat to one of his freedoms. He, in his mixed up reality, defended to the death his right/freedom to keep and bear arms.

I feel and pray for those officers and their families. I pray for this kid and his family. I pray none of us ever have to face the reality that this kid thought he perceived.

However, if the day does finally arrive that this kids distorted reality does become a very true reality, how many of you that have spouted off that "they can pry them from my cold dead fingers" are as willing to defend that right and those words to the point this kid did.

Instead of ranting and arguing about if the kid did the right thing or not, I would rather see all of the very very knowledgeable and patriotic people on this site put their heads together to figure out how to put a positive political spin on this. Instead of saying he was psycho and shouldn't have had the guns, turn it to how much he believed in his rights and freedoms and defended them. And let the anti- crowd know that what this kid felt and did is a very commonly shared outlook by most of the gun owners of America.

Eric

Yep, that one sentence I skimmed over about the mom calling influenced my train of thought on the pre-meditated setup....the following sentence about Scuillo being shot in the head jumped out at me....no excuse, just an explaination....yet in the time it took the officers to arrive, "the boy", who you mentioned earlier was only a year younger than you, prepared himself....the libel remark was not taken as directed to myself only....


This is an incident....an unfortunate one, but still an incident....one that has happened with more frequent occurrence here as of late....yet none of the recent shootings that have made the news are related and have not happened for the same reasons....I am referring to the last four....the only thing that they have in common, as a base element, is that a firearm was involved....yeah you can throw in the unemployed angle if you like where it applies....the demo-graphics, ages, motives, etc varied....although they were all "shootings", that is about where the similarities end....

To put it in perspective as an incident....take all the gun owners that have registered and unregistered weapons in the US....how many millions of people?....divide the number of "shootings that make national news" into those millions....gives you how many out of how many gun owners....lesser crimes/shootings happen all the time, it is just that they don't make the wire....yeah, these will increase the percentage differential, but not to the point that cause it to be classified as a "symptom" of our society....

"The kid" and this is just a guess, probably wouldn't know a "socialist" from a "socialite"....with the current and past history of the politicians and self-rightous anti-gunners nibbling away at any right of gun ownership....be it restrictions on mag capacity, ammo registration, bans on particular styles or brands of weapons, imports, etc....and the media saturating the air waves with "sensationalism for ratings" instead of accurate reporting....I could see where he might have concerns about his weapons....but as Pat said, he crossed the line....

The things that you stated as crap....are again unfortunately actually quite real....I have no idea how old you are and I guess it doesn't matter in the long run....but you may want to watch the news....go mainstream if you like, don't even look at any of the "right wing biased" news that target anything that Obama and his crew are doing....listen and try to understand what your (and my) new president is doing and saying to the rest of the world....look at where we (as a country) are going according to the plan of the Administration....to blame these officer's deaths on "s" heads, as you put it, talking about being pro American and expressing their concerns about how this country is going down the crapper....is totally F'd up....the next time I'm standing around a fire "with a 20 something year old kid" that is not fully functional in the common sense and self-discipline department....I will ensure that he is not armed and that he fully understands exactly and without question just what the hell all those that have experianced the "Pro American" life are talking about....and how we would like to see our children and grand-children know it too....instead of us lowering our standards to accommodate those countries that are struggling to raise theirs....

Paul

btw: When was the last time you saw one of our presidents bow to a Middle Eastern King?....

Should we get to the point of actual gun confiscation in this country there will be problems....to say that this guy actually thought they were coming to get his guns is probably a stretch....knowing more about him and his previous run-ins with the authorities, neighbors, people in general, criminal record if any, would paint a better picture of his actual reasonings for his actions....to try and put a positive political spin on a cop killing is absurd....there is nothing that can be made constructive from this (shooter's actions)....

The "anti-gun crowd" while publicly releasing "heart-felt condolences" for the families of the slain officers....privately look upon this as another "example of why there should be no guns in the public's hands"...."people need to be protected from themselves and each other"....another opportunity to strengthen their case for further restrictions and eventual banning of firearms to the general public....us....they have no concern that the majority of gun owners have a shared outlook....they could care less....the elected officials for the most part, not all, but most, no longer represent their constituents, they represent themselves....and their own political/personal agenda, hidden or not....


That's a F'd up statement....but you already knew that....

Paul

I agree, Paul, but how is my defending what he may have been thinking without background information any different than everybody immediately condemning him without the same information?

None of us know what was actually going through his head. All we have is some hear say evidence from a neighbor.

Using that information would be akin to me taking out a Mcdonalds with a full auto weapon because of a bad history with them. Yet all that gets reported is that my neighbor said I did it because i had a hamburger that was bad.

Without actual testimony from the kid we may never know the true reasons he did what he did.

 
I am not saying glorify the kid. What he did was atrocious. I  have said I don't condone what he did. Yet, with the info we have to work with, we could make a strong case for him being willing to defend his rights to the death.


this very thing here is why we need to stand strong and show that while the kid did an unthinkable thing, he did it in the belief of his freedoms and rights. If we just roll over and allow the anti- crowd to post up more crap about why nobody deserves to have guns then we may as well just pile them all in the street now and tell them to come pick them up. Saying we cannot do anything because the anti- crowd already has a foothold and that what we say or do wont matter is already running with a defeatists attitude.

So, do what you will. Roll over and play dead if you must at the might of the anti- crowd. I for one, will be exercising on of my other rights in the freedom of speech and showing that a good portion of those who value the right of firearm possession will not go so quietly.


just because an atrocity happened does not mean it cannot be used to hopefully open a few eyes and do some good.

What ISN'T "to protect and to serve" about police responding to a report of domestic violence in an effort to protect and serve someone who felt they were in danger?

You have absolutely nothing to go on, based on those three officers, that should incline you to think this way. To do so puts you in the same dumbass boat as every other moron that thinks he can profile based on "experience" and passed happenings. There are no indications in any reports that these cops were just there for a paycheck. In my opinion, a cop that gets shot in the head reporting to a call for help is a hero. Not someone that needs to be put under your little spotlight and examined.


It doesn't help. All it does is solidify your consistent MO: Force and twist something until it fits your need and agenda. You've got no reason to paint these cops as just "workers" instead of being passionate about their jobs. I'm not sure if you ever were a LEO, but putting on that badge and rolling up on a situation where you can get shot in the head takes passion. There are a million other jobs in this world that you can get a paycheck from that DON'T necessitate putting your skull in the way of a bullet. I've seen you type some stupid shit, but trying to turn this into a question of the dedication of those dead officers instead of an issue of some whackjob is outrageous, even for you.

Thanks Pat, I knew I could count on you to misunderstand and misconstrue anything I typed, You never dissapoint do ya

Its obvious again by the usual name calling you resort to that you have nothing valid to contribute whatsoever, Some things never change.  

How/why the cops clocked in that morning is irrelevant.  A seed was planted (a bad one) that led this kid to believe a killing spree was needed.  There lies the fundamental disconnect that negated all relevance to his actions.  In other words; I don't care how he felt because of what he did.  We will know soon enough the details on this idiot.  I just wish they had shot him dead or he had the balls to do it himself.



The days when a people rise up and violently found a new nation are over.  The next level of political revolution will be peaceful.  If Americans must fight let's hope/pray it be against a common enemy and not a neighbor with a differing political view.    

The choice still remains whether to cultivate peace or violence.  If one nurtures the latter they will never see the former.

= Namecalling

again, you still need to work on that reading comprehension, I never said anything derogatory directly related to these 3 guys, or the ones last week who died, you are the one who tied what I said to this particular incident. I was just relaying what I heard just today from a former cop about police in general, I am sorry that you chose to apply it to these particular guys.

  

A semi-relevant article
 
Why Fearing the Police Is Not Irrational

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig10/cohoon1.html

You're so twisted, Steve. It amazes me that you say one thing, mean another, and still abhor politicians. You should have been one.


Your statement is extremely clear. "The police who were shot", "still question", "they". You're directly referencing those three guys and calling into question their dedication to their work. The other aspect of your post does relate to something you heard an ex-LEO say about the trends in police work. Why find the need to link that with these three guys? What is the importance of trying to create that link?

Hey, every job has its occupational hazards.  The last I heard, nobody has ever been forced into a law enforcement career and likewise, we can't make our little world completely safe and secure for everyone, including cops, by shitcanning the Constitution either.

You really need to accept the fact that living in a free society entails a certain amount of risk, Pat, and there really is a damn good reason why our founding fathers did not name this country the "Utopian States of America".   

It is different in the sense that the call the officers were responding to was not "a man with a gun, barricaded with an elderly hostage" call, but a "domestic" call....ask the other current and prior LEOs on here about about assessing your personal threat level as you roll to a "domestic"....such calls can and often do get ugly real quick once you arrive at the scene....take this particular one as an example of how quick things go bad....

Condemning the guy is a no brainer from a sane person view-point....in this situation defending him for what he did regardless of what his motives or thoughts were is nuts....he prepared to engage and kill whichever officers arrived at his house....

If you were to take out a Micky D's with a full auto weapon or a cement truck thru the dining area....I would still say that you were wrong and off your rocker....regardless of your perceived insult to your man-hood because you thought Ronald McDonald reminded you of your high school guidance counselor....the one that took your parking permit and then parked in your old spot....just because you felt you were wronged....

I'm not privy to the procedures that the Pittsburg PD uses for each of their reponses....and I do not know the layout of the house and front door area....I did not know these officers or how they individually felt about their job or at what level of performance they did their jobs....but after thinking about it and having done the job, there may have been a mis-step on their part....this statement is not to be interpeted as saying they contributed to the guy's actions....officer survival is supposed to be paramount in the training of all field/road related events....we do not know if they were complacent or if it was "sh*t, we got a call at such and such, fourth time this week....guy's nothing but mouth"....something, other than the obvious, went wrong....

I am not "rolling over" as you put it....but for you to think that political good can come out of this is somehow beyond me....unless of course you can give me a specific, detailed plan or course of action that shows the "good" in this triple murder....

There is one thing that I can think of the may come out of this on the positive side....and it has nothing to do with politics, Second Amendment rights....hopefully after reviewing the chain of events/actions that were involved with this....a re-enforcement of officer survival training and how an officer approaches a given call, either alone or a member of a team, will be conducted....with equal emphasis on officer, victim, suspect....

Paul

Here's a pretty good article that addresses this, and other shooting events.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090405/D97C2G500.html

Put aside for a moment the debate over guns. This isn't about policy. It's about asking the urgent question: What is happening in the American psyche that prevents people from defusing their own anguish and rage before they end the lives of others? Why are we killing each other?

This is not an era of good feeling in the United States. We have under our belt eight years of pernicious terrorism angst, six years of Iraq war weariness and, now, months of wondering how bad the American economy's going to get and when - or, worse, whether - it's going to come back. People are tense. There's less inclination to help out your fellow human being.

The strangest of contradictions hangs over the Binghamton shootings. The shooter and many of the victims were immigrants - part of the pool of human beings who look to America as a place of opportunity and take often anonymous steps to realize their dreams here. On Friday, the idea that had beckoned them betrayed them.

The man believed to be the shooter, Jiverly Wong, had lost his job at an assembly plant, was barely getting by on unemployment and was frustrated that the American dream, so highly billed and coveted, wasn't coming through for him. Early reports suggest that the suspect in the Pittsburgh officers' killings, too, was angered at being laid off from a glass factory.

Of Jiverly Wong, Binghamton police Chief Joseph Zikuski had this to say Saturday: "He must have been a coward." Perhaps. But that's the beginning of an answer, not the end of one. On Friday, the federal government announced that 663,000 Americans lost their jobs in March. What's truly unsettling in America's new era of gloom and dead ends is wondering how many of those 663,000 might be deeply, irrevocably angry about it - and might have a gun.

Like the remaining majority of America, they've become pussified.

It used to be they just killed themselves. Then it transformed into they killed a few other people and in the process, were killed. Now, they wear bulletproof vests in an effort to live through the ordeal and take as many people as they can and eventually they'll get a reality show and a book deal.

This is exactly how I feel when people blame TV/Video Games/Movies/Music.If that were true,how come there is no one up in arms over the lyrics of Johnny Cash's Delilah's Gone or Alice Cooper's Lost in America?

Murder for personal profit or any sort is as old as Cain and Abel.  I'm talking about wanting to kill yourself but taking many innocent others with you.  It's not like it hasn't happened before, but the rate of larger-scale sensational incidents is increasing in frequency.

Those individuals were weak minded souls themselves....and ending their own life would put an end to their own suffering, either real or perceived....there was a multiple murder in Washington state, father killed five of his kids, then drove away and killed himself....stress can be a bitch....

Here's a f'd up way to look at the immigration center shootings....the shooter was just looking out for his fellow immigrants and saved them the hassle of trying to fit in to main stream America....who knows?, that might have been his line of thinking....quite possible, for he didn't try and go to the place he lost his job at and crank off a few rounds at people there....maybe he was disappointed in the schooling he received in the English language....it was reported that he was degraded by his coworkers for his lack of English speaking skills....

The Pittsburg guy has a tat of an eagle across his chest according to the news....along with some others....there's a possible indicator right there....as to frame of mind....might want to keep an eye on his "best friend" in the whole wide world....now that he has had a few minutes of "fame" in the news....the bumper sticker says "Question Authority"....it doesn't say "Murder Authority"....so has anyone figured out if the Aryan Brotherhood or any of the other white supremacist groups is going to ante up for the defense counsel?....

Maybe if this guy had a 4wd in his driveway facing the house....they could have just looked at his bumper and rear window for decals and bumper stickers....and determined if he was an actual threat....maybe they didn't get the memo....

I am not making light of any of the loss of life that these people caused....those that have been killed and the surviving families/friends/co-workers are the victims....and in the whole scheme of things, we all are in a sense....the use of a firearm is a matter of convenience....a person determined to end someone's life will ultimately succeed or be caught attempting to do so....the imagination is the only limiting factor in the method used to end another's life....

Many laws in this country and those law-makers that came up with them and then passed them in regard to firearms are and always have been somewhat questionable....allowing victims of a shooting to sue the manufacturer of a weapon used by a criminal or deranged individual has always baffled me....how about going after the person that loaded and pulled the trigger?....what?, they were killed by police or committed suicide to prevent from doing jail time....no money there, let's  go after the manufacturer, they have money....banning certain style weapons because they look intimidating....your kidding me....we couldn't have high capacity magazines because you could kill more people with it?....couldn't import semi-auto AK configured weapons, but change the stock to a bench style one, remove the bayonet lug....and you're golden....I have never heard of someone "being murdered by bayonet" (while attached to the rifle) or butt stroked to death in the general public....HK battle rifles labeled as "assault rifles"....can't have those....Glock polymer "plastic guns"....oh my....they can be smuggled past metal detectors....guess again....and who is a large purchaser of the Glocks?....law enforcement....and on and on....the weapons are the evil, they are the things that cause good people to go bad....BS....they are inanimate objects composed of metal, plastic, composites and sometimes wood....a tool....nothing more....

Several years ago, a guy deliberately drove down I95 going south-bound in the north-bound lane....ramming people and running them off the interstate into the trees....just below Fairfax Co. Va....was the vehicle he was driving banned from the roadway or manufacture?....

The guy in Stockton, Ca. killed the little school kids with a Valmet (semi-auto AK copy), then kills himself....shortly there after the "assault rifle" ban comes to be....what if he had used a ball bat, 34 Louisville Slugger?...."baseball bat ban" for bats over 32's?....

The list goes on....

Just a collection of things that have been running thru my mind the last little bit....

Why take out others beside themselves?....because they can....when there is pretty good intel that those you are going to shoot have no way to defend themselves....such as no concealed carry on premises....then it becomes pretty much a cake walk....until and if the authorities arrive....then at that time most of these shooters have little to no contingency plan....but some do....the cop killer in PA had to shoot fast and accurately to have hit the first two officers....then it was wing it from there, play it as it unfolds....


Paul