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    I'd like y'all to meet "B.U.D.", the Big Ugly Dodge.

This will be our new trail rig - essentially what Nacho's original plan has 'morphed' into.  Crew cab, short box, Cummins-power, big driveline and tires, 'military-grade' rig.  Big, simple, strong, abusable, basic, and lots 'o fun - basically a full-size mil-spec Dodge 'Jeep'.

I'll be collecting the hardware for a while and I'll start the build soon as the 'Paddy Wagon' is rolling, ~ Oct 2010 thru summer 2011.    

First...need parts -

Cab - check.  Found a pretty decent '77 4-door....it's even blue...sort'a...

...first look -



pulled the remains of the front clip off, tossed out the seats and interior debris, loosed the mounts,, propped it up on some wheels, and then...time for the loader





all secure, a quick Sonic fly-by and pit stop, then back to the ranch to let it sit amongst the other derelict hardware    "but it's all part of a project, honey"





...and under the back seat was a curious object - it looks like a mega-Uber CB???  Can anyone id this thing?





....this one...I'm really looking forward to

Nice find.  Truck and CB. 

looks like a really solid cab.

Where is this junkyard full of dodge trucks? Thats awesome!

nice score sam!  loved the nacho build, but now the new one is more my speed plus a crew which has been my dream for mannnnyyyyy years, just cant find them around here.  cant wait to see the beast done. 

Nice score. That isn't a CB that looks like an early VHF High band repeater.
Think commuication gear for foresty police fire etc. You may be able to sell it to some short wave geeks that convert them to 2M radios depending on the wattage

should definately be a sweet build. 

I too would like to know the location of that Dodge truck gold mine you posted pics of

Nice find!!!!


 

the yard is called Canyon Truck - good fellas there, willing to help with a loader, etc, and very reasonable prices.  The cab cost $500.  It's down in Canon City, south of Colorado Springs and west of Pueblo.  Lots of good parts still there, including what looks like a Top Hand/Ranch Hand(?) short box P-Wagon and a ~79 Trailduster.  There are also two Cummins parts trucks, both with engines, both 2wd.  I like going there just to browse - there's a couple more pieces I need to get for BUD.  Several 80's RC bodies and lots of 70's P-Wagon sheet metal. 

If anyone's looking for stuff send me some electrons with your dream sheet and I'll scope it out.  Transporting hardware is just a matter of hooking up at a RamJam or something

sweeeeeeet!

Looks like a good start.

Your yard is kinda looking like the back 40 of Davis Monthan AFB!  What are all of the other mothballed items back there?

A quick scan of flee-bay leads me to think you might get about $100 back for that radio!   Now the cab's only about $400....

ya I'll likely just sell the thing - I'm sure not gonna need it.

So the plan is to do a simple 6BT/727 combo, but pull the 727 tailhousing (factory mated to a 205) and swap it out for the 203 unit, which will allow me to mate the doubler straight up to the 727, eliminating the fancy adaptors and stub shaft.  I'm thinking I won't even have to swap output shafts - I think it'll be a bolt-up.  I think the 205 tailhousing is longer than the 203 version, hence the extension housing and coupler sliup shaft for the 205, and with the shorter 203 housing there should be bueno spline engagement.  I'm pretty sure I won't miss the overdrive, plus that'll be one less 'thing' to screw with.  Sound logical?

Anyone have a 727/203 tailhousing that can take a measurement of the tailhousing for me?  I'll compare it to the 205 tailhousing I have now.

Logical, yes, but I think the first time you drive it or 55mph for any length of time will make you want that OD back. My $.02.

the cast np203 tail housing adapter is 8 3/4 inches long.

That motorola looks similar to the ones we use in our military trucks.   Wonder if the truck was an AF truck at one time?  The discarded front fender looked like a replacement panel still in black paint. 

if you need a 203 output housing ill trade u straight across for your 205 one. ill even pay shipping cuz mines heavier lol.

SWEET!! I can't seem to find any around here.

i had a radio kinda like that in a blazer one time, it was for talking to chopper pilots in the forest.

So... Tilt front on this one too?

Most likely it'll be all 'stock' but without inner fenders.  Too much of a pain to keep from shaking and WAY too much fabrication to duplicate.

the back 40 your talking bout was my backyard....lol im a desert rat from tucson living in the sticks now damn i miss AZ.......to the so.of DMAFB is nothing but j/y's to the so. east was the planes bone yard.....beautiful stuff.......

nice find SAM im sad to see macho go its worth every penny put in it and im sure you will get most of what you are asking for it...loved reading the build forums and cant wait to see what you got up your sleeve for the club cab.looking forward to following this build closely good luck and have fun.....chris

well today was pretty fun and I made some interesting discoveries.  Among many reasons for doing this truck, 'simple' and 'maintainable' are among the top 5, maybe top 3.  I've been pondering all manner of leaf spring theory, looking at possible applications and different makes, lifts, spring rates, etc blah yadda, and so today I wanted to test a theory I had so I did a little experiment with the equipment I already had.
I propped Nacho's right side up on stands, pulled the wheels, and pulled both front and rear leaf packs, and shoved the rear 56" leaf pack up under the front - just to see if it could actually fit...at all...and to see how much it compressed under Nacho's heafty weight and how much it compared to the custom front leaf pack that was in there.  What I discovered was actually pretty interesting - here it is:

First, the stock 56" pack did in fact 'fit' - here it is simple shoved under the frame, not mounted to shackles, etc - this is roughly how it will look fully extended (again this is just WAG'ing) -



and here is what it looks like with full weight - it compressed pretty well but not as much as I thought it would -



...so I'm looking at it and I was surprised it didn't compress further than this and I wondered how it would react with less leafs (remember this is the standard 5-leaf ProComp 4" lift rear spring for a Chevy - they're cheap and 'available'), so I pulled off the lower two leafs, and reinstalled it -

yeah...it lost 1 inch of overall lift - that's it.  This 3-leaf, 56" spring is fully suspending Nacho's weight easily - easily doing the same job as the uber 7-leaf short pack that was in there.  And oh by the way, I tested the gushiness of the suspension by pushing down on the front bumper - yeahhhh it fealt GREAT - plenty of nice 'give', good and bouncy - plenty capable for suspending this much truck and it's nicely 'in' the spring - not 'on' it like a buck-board ride we're all used to.



and to show what would need to be done for the rear shackle, here's the basic idea -



shoule be a piece of cake - I'm moving the body mount up, probably making one from scratch and mounting it upward so as to eliminate the 3-inch lift block all together, and that should make plenty of room for the shackles to do their thing.  Here's what it looks like under weight with a 36" tire - not a bad lift at all



....and yes...that's SNOW piling up on the hood   - nice way to celebrate the last day of summer, no?!!    I love snow  

This is what I'm gonna try, and once I get the caster angle figured out I bet this thing drives really, really nicely, AND it should have crazy compression/extension potential for wheelin'.  Important to remember - while the truck needs to be streetable this isn't going to be a daily-driver...although it si very likely I'll be taking this dude to work now and then - the gate guards should love it!.  This is gonna be a big, heavy, trail rig, and I think big, long leafs may be the key to giving it some real 'suspension'.  PLUS, if I need more lift I still have those two bottom leafs that I can reinstall, AND it's using off-the-shelf inexpensive leaf springs from my local 4-wheel parts.   I'm diggin' it

- Sam

Dang snow already cool! 

Just remember that when you remove leaves you decrease the spring's ability to resist axle wrap.

copy that Trent, thanks.  I do have plans to fab up a set of traction arms front and rear to at least reduce or maybe eliminate the real bad wrap - the arms will be tethered to the front spring mounts so they'll sway with the leaf pack.

Pretty cool

Nice info!!!!

It's too early for SNOW!!!!!

We thought it was a bit early too, but fortunately we love the winters out here...and we also think it's gonna be a serious winter this time.  S'okay tho - we be ready.

Fortunately the weather a bit south of here wasn't too bad, and it was a great day for a parts run -

found an '82 Ram dually D350 with a nice little (read HUGE) Dana 70 dually rear axle with factory 4.56's, and elsewhere hiding in a big 'transmission garden' I spotted an A-518 Cummins 4x4 tranny.  The axle looks great inside - it even smells good - it was behind a 318 and not a Cummins so it isn't all shredded inside.  I'm hoping it only needs some fresh seals...and a Detroit , and what's also cool is it's about 2 inches wider than normal and I want the extra width to help compensate for the extra wheelbase - should work good, and it has huge drums - bonus.  I'm gonna disect the tranny and see what makes 'em tick, do some voodoo on the output shaft to get more oiling to the o/d, and that'll be Bud's tranny and rear axle.

Dang I forgot how big those 70's look out of the truck...... 

beefy.................................................................

Nice Find!!!
Are you going to do a detailed write up on the OD oil system mod??

   a'yep

Thanks.
I'm taking notes on this one!!!!!

Good luck. Can't wait to see more of this build.

Isn't that a dually 70 rear end? 

yup...'swat I wanted to find.  It's about 2 inches wider than a standard 70 and that's also what I wanted.  Some folks want to stay as narrow as possible, I want to be a bit wider.  After a quick call to my buddy Matt at NAPA he confirmed that the 5/8" studs can be replaced with 1/2" studs - same shank for the hub, different thread for the lugs, and that way the front and back lug nuts will match{cool}....although I am thinking of leaving the back alone and converting the front to 5/8" lugs.  More beef is better than less

you going to run Dually rear or what? I have a Dana 70 DRW sitting in my garage that I'm not sure I want to use, so my tires don't stick out too far. I want to keep my SRW set up.

Max I'm guessing that its a C&C dually rear? I found out the hard way there is a difference in width on a C&C dually and PU dually. C&C dually being the narrower.

No I'm not running duals out back - same wheels as the front.  I'm not certain if it is a C&C or dually rear, but it did measure out to be about 2 inches wider than a standard d70 srw rear, and I wanted the extra width.  The drums are also nice and thick, which when properly dialed in will offer great performing...and very simple...rear brakes.  I'm not swapping to any sort of discs on this truck - just won't need 'em.  Drums will be just fine.

Plus...ever notice the fronts on our trucks are jsut a bit wider than the rears - something about the track being wider than the rear?  I've no idea why - I'm sure it's for drivability or something, but the wider rear should actually match the fronts track width - bonus .

The reason the front is wider than the rear is to give them a better turning radius.

...man...I gotta say...I am really stoked about building this truck for some reason - much more so than Nacho.  I think I'm just excited about the expected fun-factor - simple, beefy, flexy, fun - a big silly beater - eeeeexcellent!   -  and a whole lot easier, and quicker, to build.  I'm really looking forward to drivin' and wheelin' it.  Hoping to have it up and runnin' in late spring 2011 in time for the summer wheelin' season.  I really think the build time will be in months like Nacho was supposed to be.

So, suspension.  I am planning on using the big beefy but flexy 56" springs up front, and out back I'm going up to the Superlift 63" rear with 6" lift/2.5" wide (#01385 - '99-06 Chevy - $173/side from 4-wheel parts).....and ironically the exact same dimensions for the 94-up 1/2-ton and 3/4 ton Dodge Ram trucks.
  
Essentially, the longer the leaf the better the ride, and the longer the leaf the better the flex.  And what I discovered the other day was that it isn't the number of leafs, it's the combination of spring rate and lift, and finding the happy medium between the two.  My goal is to have a suspension system that, when under full weight (and in my case probably about 7300 lbs), the leaf spring is nicely half way 'into' it's compression - what I call 'in the leaf', verse a leaf spring that sits nearly under no compression with full weight, what I call 'on the leaf' (and common to the buck-board ride we all hate to love).

To understand my thinking - you know how the back end of a pickup rides so much better when there's a bunch of weight in the bed?, that's what I call being 'in' the spring verse an unloaded truck that bucks along 'on' the spring.  That's the happy place I'm hoping to have this truck riding in all the time.  Don't know if it'll work out just the way I want, but for sure it'll be close, and it'll be with store-bought springs and not something custom made, or custom priced .

When the truck is 'in' the leaf the truck has already overcome the initial shock load of the spring and therefore has already absorbed the majority of the initial bump pressure, and while there will be a corresponding rebound I feel it will be much less than a spring that rides 'on' the leaf.  I confirmed that when in the leaf the truck has much more bounce potential when you push down on the front bumper - the suspension has nice 'give' to it, and that lends to a nice ride.  The trick, in my opinion, is finding the happy medium between the initial amount of lift bumped into the spring countered by the weight of the truck.  This can be altered some by adding or removing leafs as necessary, but like Trent said pulling leafs can lend to axle wrap, especially in high torque engines like a Cummins.  So, in my case, I'll be using a simple traction bar at all 4 corners to keep from folding the leafs in half and rotation the axle tubes, blowing the u-joints, and pretty much ruining my day.  And hey, maybe this time I'll actually bolt up some shocks  

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it

You killing me Sam I have just about made up my mind to do 52" F & 56"R springs on my Crew to improve the ride and now you come up with this  I'll have to stay tuned about the longer rears but I don't think I'll do the fronts as I have a set of Jungle's hangers to use.

Got a question about relocating the shackles:

How can the remaining hole from the old front spring shackles be covered up without compromising the frame?

I suspect it compromises the frames strength in that area without the old spring hanger tying the frame together. (That is if you take out the old hanger.)

I'd say "weld it shut" but do also believe that doesn't make the frames molecular structure any better and is even more prone to cracking than leaving that hole open.

What do you think?

Thanks!
Alex

I'd leave it as-is.  It's a factory hole and it's nice and smooth.  You can always weld it closed, and so long as it's an older frame (...pre-98(?) when they went to the hydroformed frames) you can weld on 'em all you want.  IIRC the hydroformed frames don't like to be drilled or welded...can anyone confirm that?  Joe?
These older frames are pretty dern'd tuff and they're user-friendly - I'd have no worries about an open hole (Nacho's full of 'em), especially a factory one.  Now, that said, I wouldn't drill any more than you have to...and what I would worry about is if you mis-mark your new shackle mount, drill, and discover they're off by 1/2 inch...well then you have a potential for a figure-8 drill hole, and that can possibly lead to a nut or washer pulling through, so in those cases I'd definitely weld the wrong hole closed on both sides, slowly grind flush alternating where you grind (a little on this hole...a little on that hole...), then re-drill.
Plus, I'm also a fan of welding the washer/nut combo to the back of the frame - one less wrench to hold onto 

cool - after geekin' on my gear/speed calculator it looks like my mph @ rpm specs look real good.

Here's the quick summary:  6BT Cummins, A-518 o/d, 4.56 gear, 36" tire:

     --  60 mph = 2600 rpm (no o/d), 1750 rpm (o/d)
     --  75 mph = 3200 rpm (no o/d), 2200 rpm (o/d)

                       - with a 38" tire -

     --  60 mph = 2400 rpm (no o/d), 1650 rpm (o/d)
     --  75 mph = 3000 rpm (no o/d), 2100 rpm (o/d)

And since I'm using the 36" Mickey's I already have the ride will be pretty smooth, though loud.  When I grind through these tires I'll likely go up to 38's, probably again a set of these MTZ's - they make a nice 38x15.5.

For a non-intercooled Cummins 6BT, to me those numbers sound real good.  Then, when off road and doubled-down, in 1st gear I'll walk faster than the thing'll idle along.  Tons of smooth torque...definitely need hydroboost brakes .

As far as outfitting the truck, looks like the key components will be:  ram-assist steering, hydroboost brakes, 15k front winch and a 9k rear, A/C, 56" front springs, 63" rears, about 8 inches of overall lift, front Detroit Electrac locker w/ 35 spline swap and rear detroit.

And Nacho's full body, bumpers, and interior are 'sold' - it goes by-by next month, headed down to Austin.  Therfore, project B.U.D., my "Air Force 1-Ton", is on

    

im dying to see this MONSTER.. cant wait .....

The hydroboost brakes are a must!! Mine are on the way already. What are you going to run for a pump? I was looking at the late 90s Saginaw style pump setup my self. The ZE pump ford used in there F600 is even bigger but does NOT have the vacuum pump in it .

originally I was planning to go all Chevy but I think I'll try the 2nd gen Dodge (98-01~ish) systems first.  Bud is likely to be the guinea pig, and when I get it all dialed in I'll do the same to my other two trucks.  What I'm not sure of is how the full hydro steering will be affected by the hydro brakes.  For certain I'll need a good steering fluid cooler and good sized reservoir.

Check out hydratechbraking.com . They have assist units that don't require engine vacuum. Thought it was pretty cool, figured I'd share.    Bill

cool site, thanks Bill.  They list stuff for the musclecars but I bet they have something real similar for trucks - probably the same parts.
This'll be an interesting conversion - I'm excited to 'feel' the results.

a couple of ?? on your test fit of the 56" springs. 1. those were procomp 13511 correct? 2. the centering pin is not offset? 28" of spring both in front and behind the pin correct? 3. have you moved the front axle (itself) forward from stock location (IE. still centered in wheelwell).

by the way i probably won't be doing my spring switch till feb. i have other things to do on the rc before that and when you are an over the road truck driver time for wrenching goes by quickly. 2-3 days a month.

one last ? for now,do you have problems with your jackstands sinking or was the ground already frozen? my "shop" looks like yours in the test pics except soft sand. 

yeah those were the 13511's.  IIRC on the spring itself the pin is not centered - it's off by ~4 inches towards the front, but overall to keep the pin centered to stock Dodge the whole leaf pack will have to come forward ~ 3-4 inches from stock.  It's something like that - I haven't got the precise specs yet but I think I'll have them come Jan/Feb '10.  The biggest piece of this puzzle is going to be moving the front mount forward and down to level out the spring enough to compensate for the big extra length at the rear shackle and still keep the caster angle square.  That's going to be the big trick, and it'll likely involve a big beefy front mount, but since I'm going there anyway I figure it'll work itself out.

On the sinking stands - yeah they sank a little but the ground held pretty good.  It's not frozen yet but it's only sandy on the surface.  So far so good

Sam check this out on the ZF pump.

http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/zf-hydraulic-pump-hydro-boost-install-t252825.html?t=252825

Thanks Jim - good stuff there.  I've bene thinking about omitting the vacuum pump all together on this rig - I don't think I'll need it and I'd be happy to eliminate the hardware - one less thing to hang off the gearcase.

I'm been looking at all manner of front lockers and I'm thinking about going with an Ox Locker.  I really like the cable-operated nature of it, especially the ability to pin it 'locked' if the cable breaks, etc.  I think it along with the 35-spline axle upgrades aught to make the front end pretty stout.  
http://www.4wheelparts.com/prodDetail.aspx?partNo=OXLOXD60C456H-35&jeep-parts=true

It's a bit spendy but you get what you pay for, and I think it'll be worth it in the end.  I definitely like the 'simple' nature of it - the shifter cable mounts in the cab - manually 'shifting/engaging' the front locker sounds pretty bueno to me .

The rear end is getting a detroit - simple and beefy.  And thanks to 'SuperBurban' I also think I found a good bed - I may go have a look later this week.  

There's a lot of thought/decisions that has to go into the build at the stage you're at now. The Ox should be a good locker for you, Especially with the weight on the front end with the 6BT. Have you checked with Lanty AKA"Elwein" ( http://www.stullunlimited.com/ ) for your D60 parts? He does some Awesome pricing & great customer service!!
Jim

Please keep us posted about the OX lockers. These are on my "WANT!"-list too...

A note on the OX lockers, they are good lockers when they work. when i worked at the 4x4 shop there was a guy who had a jeep with them in front and rear. he wasnt mechanicaly inclined at all so we were always working on them. they wouldnt lock, u could put the lever into the locked position and the slider wouldnt slide all the way over. we adjusted the cables every which way you could and eventually we could get them to lock about 70% of the time. eventually we took them both off.  but anyway the biggest problem i found with them is IMO they work backwards. the cable PUSHES the slider over to lock it and PULLS with the help of a spring when it unlocks. again IMO and you can take it for what its worth( sometimes its not much lol) they should PULL with the cable to lock it and PUSH to unlock using the spring to do most of the work.

if you want a selectable locker im a fan of the ARB air locker. the electric locker is junk as far as im concerned.

I agree, as long as an ARB is installed correctly I think they are the best working and most proven selectable locker.

every time i see some one fiddleing around on the trail with some thing under the rig its usually a ox locker.

that was the one thing that had me concerned was the fact that it 'pushes' into gear instead of pulling - not like engaging a 205.  Well I'm certainly confident in yer inputs fellas, and after the dismal results of the eaton e-unit now, ARB sounds pretty bueno.  Guess I'll be looking that way - now to upgrade the axles and hubs and I'll be in good shape.  Gotta finish the house first, so this gig will be 'in work' until then.  Any pro's or con's between a new or used ARB?  I think I found a used detroit for the rear...

Unless it was a smokin' deal or I knew the installer and driver of the used ARB I'd go new.

cool stuff sam.  question for you sam. you had a Detroit in the rear of nacho right? how did it do on the hwy? any weird tire wear or bad handling habits? i am thinking about one in my truck but wanted some input. i want an arb in the front eventually.

doesnt matter what is in the front as long as the hubs are unlocked.

driving down the highway in snow in 4 high with a front detroit? sketchy at best.

mine is welded but on the road it doesnt matter with th ehubs unlocked.

copy all.  Dave, no the rear is actually a pretty stout factory lim slip - as best I could tell off road it'd crank 'em both every time, and on the road it was great.  I'm planning to put it in my other RC with the D71.

since you are goin with an ARB heres and idea for a powerful and reliable air compressor for your cummins. look into gettin a compressor off a garbage truck. most of the ones ive seen have air brakes and 5.9s

yea, i don't have that worry now that i don't live in pahrump any more. but who knows where i may move to. i don't think i'd ever do that in the front regardless. i'll save my money for the arb.

well I can cross lockers off the list.  After some deep discussions with my diff guy and a nice test drive, and after selling some hardware from Nacho, I picked up the front and rear lockers.  Out back - Detroit Locker.  In front - Detroit Electrac - essentially a Detroit TrueTrac limited slip with an electronic version of an Ox.

The basic truetrac is pretty sweet - it's a fully open diff until some wheel spin is detected, then it automatically syncs into limited slip mode.  No wearable parts.  The Electrac is essentially the same diff, but with a fully-locked feature.  There is a shift fork and electric solenoid mounted behind the diff cover (similar to an Ox) that is push-button activated on-the-fly to fully lock when it's time to play.  Plus, if the wiring gets ripped off I can still go fully locked manually by removing the solenoid and inserting a pin (like an Ox), and if that doesn't work it's still a limited slip.  And since I'm doing ram-assist I'll fab up a rock shield to shield the solenoid/wiring - bonus.  This should do it.

My diff guy has the same basic combo in his truck - detroit locker in back and a truetrac in front.  He also has a snow plow hanging on the front, and he offered for me to drive it around, dirt and street, and see how it feels.  It felt great.  On the street I could feel the rear doing its thing - a little poppin' and a little jerkin', but I never noticed any issue up front.

For what I'm doing it sounds perfect.  The front is new, the rear is used, and my diff guy just happened to have both in his shop.  Got both for $1100.  

Detroit Electrac on the left, Detroit Locker on the right



 

Nice. 

While I think the Electrac in theory is a great dif,I have concerns mainly the actuator being externally mounted also will it interfere with a hydro assist setup. I really liked the Eaton but have heard they have issues too but they may have been addressed, I read there was a minor redesign.

  .... ....

Nice score for the equipment.

Now don't go and get all butt hurt,

Is this the same Diff guy that put in your last electric front locker? That worked so well for you?

its a little late now, but i'll post it up for guys who are still looking....this impressed me pretty thoroughly. granted, i haven't driven or seen one in person, but still...Tibus Offroad Teraflex T-Locker: http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-T_locker/

edited to add: it's still an external solenoid like the Electrac, but it is an air solenoid and a bit more slim-line and looks like its well protected too.

  - no, this is the guy that 'splained to me how/why the other guy (that did my first e-locker) went out of business.  This guy - his name is Darold - has done every gearset since then .  And I just found out that he lives just off the same street that we're building on - we're neighbors!

We haven't pulled the e-locker out yet to see what's wrong, but we're thinking that since it was one of the early versions that it shredded itself, or at least the little ball bearing thingies up inside either are toast or plain fell out.  We'll find out soon enough - might not be anything wrong with it except it was installed wrong.

I'm glad to hear it wasn't the same guy.

So why the electrac over the ARB most people suggested?

considering what my front diff cover looks like i would destroy the acutator on one of those with out trying.

In a previous life you were most likely a Black Smith judging by the way you like to smash metal.

lol,i think you are right.

Darold?

Does he specialize in Toyota stuff?
He might know Tim if it's the same guy.

Maybe price since he got it for about the same as a detroit.

I hope not, you generally get what you pay for, just saying.

the rear I got for $300, the front was $800.  I actually very much like the limited slip feature up front, especially the automatic nature of it.  It'll be interesting to see how often I'll actually lock it in.  At the worst case it'll still be a lim slip, even if everything get's ripped off.  That was the main reason.  The ARB was #2.  With my kind of front end weight it should function pretty well, especially when I hang the eventual plow off the front end (mostly for our neighborhood in the winter; we're 'county' - not much in the way of plow trucks, etc.  I expect the back end to dance a bit.
I don't even think Eaton makes the Electrac now, but Darold had this one still in the box in his shop - never got a chance to install it in enything (IIRC I think someone else ordered it a while ago and the project fell through).

Not sure about the Toyota thing Dave - he does a lot of full-size rigs but I know he does 'em all.  His shop is on Ford street in the Springs, not far from Peterson AFB.  He's about the best in town.

Well brand new they are about the same price, that doesn't mean they are equally the same performance wise. 

That certainly was a good price on that detroit.

35 spline axles and hubs don't go well together... 
Think drive flange! 


If the snow's deep enough, that's the only way to go!!! 

The guy I know is Darrel.  He's out in Ramah. 

I was wondering about that.  I'll certainly have enough weight and torque to break stuff, and I am upping to 35 spline gear, but I haven't looked into hubs yet.  I thought I saw matching hubs offered with the axle kits.  Tim are you saying the 35 spline hubs are less than 'enough'?


I think my biggest issue will be finding chain sets for a 38x15.5 tire... ...'course I haven't actually looked for them yet......maybe I'll just make my own.

Tirechains I have V-Bar chains for my 37's

see, there ya go - one fo the best things about this site - lots of diversity.  Ask a question, get an answer.  Thanks Bogie

the v-bar does look just about right, and they look pretty dern'd good for crunching through the ice.  See, we're planning to take Bud elk hunting - one of the reasons for a 4-door and a 'pickup', and we'll likely need chains to get back up the woods, etc, or certainly be good to have them juuust in case. 

That's the exact reason I have them Sam Getting to the cabin and up the mountain for hunting season  I also run a Suretrax bladder as I don't have lockers yet

....ya know what I'd really like to do.....

http://www.mattracks.com/html/150_series.htm

they'd be so bitchin'

I always thought those were damn cool. I first saw them in the mid 90's at a Emergency Services conference. We have a Member "Tracks" from PA that was a salesman for them and has a set or did and posted pics of them on his Ram.

I found his pics Tracks not Tires

now that's a thing of beauty .  Man...someday.....

That is Awesome!!

Hey Sam is it snowing?

...just blowin' around.  Might get some accumulation, but it looks like between Denver and Cheyenne that's gettin' schwacked.  I'm very hopeful it won't adversly affect my work schedule...

I heard on the news this morning they were saying 1 to 2 feet around the Denver area.

Hey Sam, have you thought about Rockwells for this build???
They would handle the power and weight better.  They would also allow the use of larger tires (i.e.  42"-47").

Here's a web site you might want to check out.
http://www.oemaxle.com/  

good info Tim, thanks.  I'll have to add the uber flanges to the 'list'.  I did think about rockwells, but the biggest reason I decided against them was the gear ratio, and I didn't want to build a truggy.  But if I do a buggy down the road it'd likely have rocks.  The 60/70 combo will be it for the forseeable future. 

have you thought about the dynaloc hubs? made from the same case hardend steel that they put in lockers. granted they are a little spendy but i doubt they would brake any time soon and would alow you to unlock the front axle
http://www.dynatrac.com/products_dynaloc.html

thanks Ben - now that you show that link I think I did see those a while back.  And 'spendy' is relative when compared to the cost of an extraction .  I'll likely go a route similar to that.  Thanks man.

no prob bud. im full of ideas just need money to put it into action lol

LOL! man oh man can we all relate to that.

anyone know much about the newer ford hubs? a guy i know in vegas is using a 2009 f-250 front axle in a 77 f-250 he is converting to 4x4 and adding a cummins to. it will be a tow rig for his sand buggy so it won't see rocks really. but i wonder how strong they are? he got it used from greanleaf for $1200, not sure if that's a deal or not.

Don't really know how tough the newer Ford hubs are but I can tell you that they're  sort of an "automatic manual" if that makes any sense.

you can still lock or unlock like a conventional lockout but you just have the choice of "auto" or "lock".

When the hub is in the auto position it locks in whenever the t-case is put in 4wd and they are vacuum acutated. (ie: wimpy vacuum lines running out to the knuckles.) In auto mode sometimes they work, sometimes they don't lock. and sometimes they don't unlock.

In "lock" mode everything is locked up like a regular locking hub.

I've also seen ones where they are not vacuum actuated.

Devin

Hey Sam!

I'm at the point right now in my build that I need to make a decision on front leaves.  I had initially gone with the 6" Superlift springs and longer shackles, but just found out they are a bad batch of assymetrical "made in india" springs.  As a result, I'm looking at other options.

Are the 13511 56" procomps you're putting in the front a symmetrical spring?  I see you moved the rear hanger underneath the body mount.  Are you going to extend the front as well?

Is it best to shim the spring with an angle wedge to get the castor right, or do you just "make" the castor right by getting the rear/front hanger heights correct?  Is desired castor around 4° or so for these trucks?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get some info on the front end.

I did make a pretty neat excel sheet that calculates spring rates, bending stress, and deflection if you're interested...

Thanks!

--Eric

curious, is superlift acknowledging the issue and doing anything for you?

man, we are just now getting down to the 60's. those tracks are cool.

sam, how are you going to protect that front locker set up? build some armor for it?

max when you test fitted the procomp springs (13511) into the front do you put the long end towards the front of the vehicle or towards the rear. i got mine the week and test fitted them with long end towards the front. to get a decent shackle angle the front mount is out past the frame about 4". and the axle moved about 4" also. which in my case is not a prob, i have extended it (frame)to mount a winch already. the reason i ask is after thinking about it i was worried about how much slip in the driveshaft and axle movement i will get as the spring compresses? or if i should turn the springs around and move the shackle mount back. again no real problem. one reason i was thinking of short side to rear was to help on pinion climb like rear springs in your duster/demon. sorry no pics hopefully will have camera and lifetime supporter by Xmas.

honestly I haven't got that far yet , but my initial w.a.g. is that I'll keep the long side rearward and make an Uber front mount (much like aspoonhour did on his last project 'Zero') and incorporate the front winch within the front leaf mounts.....something like that.  

My plan at this point is to mount the 13511's 'as required' in order to get the axle centered in the stock location, and fab the front/rear mounts and shackles accordingly.  The truck will definitely have some nice lift, and I like that


Sorry about the delay Dave - yah I'm planning some kind of front armor, but I'll also still have the crosslink for the steering and ram-assist.  I've about decided against full-hydro in lieu of trying to determine what was wrong with my ram-assist - I think it was a combination of a stock pump and very hot fluid (it boiled out on Spring Creek), so a cooler is definitely in the X-mas list.  But yah I'll have some sort of additional armor on the front diff to pump up the 'impact resistance'

so after some thorough discussions I've decided to keep my doubler gig as-is and not mess with trying to fabricate some kind of custom tranny output shaft or fancy 203 input shaft - just isn't prudent...especially since the current setup ain't 'broke.  I'm trying really hard to KISS - Keep It Simple Sam  .

At this point it looks like the steering will be the current ram-assist but I'll upgrade to the PSC pump and some hardware.  Hydroboost brakes will definitely go in and I think I'll keep it all-Dodge ala ~'98 Ram.  I acquired the 'bed' about amonth ago on the GSL website but I'm still waiting for the paperwork to clear so I can go pick it up.  Thankfully it's sitting in the DRMO lot at Ft Carson - about 45 minutes away .  No pics yet - military bases kinda frown on that sort of thing .  Might try to grab a M105 trailer to pull behind Bud to carry the ATV or, more likely, lots of landscaping stuff - our house is nearly done and we gota lots of landscaping to do, and a big strong military trailer would do well for carrying around lots of rock, timbers, plants, whatever, especially if I did the dump-bed thing .

Also looks like I'll take Nacho's A-518 and stuff it up under Red (I'm really wanting an overdrive under there), and I'll rebuild my core 518 for Bud.  I'll do a couple bits of voodoo, mainly for better oiling and cooling, add a new DTT converter, bolt up the doubler (with adaptors) and call it good .

Truck's really gonna be fun - me and my lady are really stoked, especially me!  Gonna be a lot of 'Jeep' in this truck.  Should be fun

- M2

sounds good sam. no need to apologize. 

lol @ K.I.S.S.= keeping it simple sam haha laughter as i chuckle.....i havent seen anything simple from you yet.... just kiddin... your speaking of land scaping project i have alot of family down there and there good at it . grab the first mexican  just tell him you know Juan and hell come fix your yard .
chris/78bucket

  - lol!  Hey I'm tryin' my hardest not to complicate Bud any more than I have to....tryin'.  We'll see how it turns out - it's gonna be a big Dodge, with some Jeep mixed in......aaaand a big slug of 'monster truck' mixed in (for flavor )....all dipped in Air Force Strata Blue .  What's cool is Trevor's M-37 (with a sweet 4bt Cummins, A-518, and a NWF black box/205 doubler) is also gonna be Strata Blue    We gonna have some fun with these rigs! 

Looks also like Nacho's tranny is going in Red ('cause I want the overdrive pretty bad, and Nacho's tranny is already built, and it has a DTT converter...), and I'll build my core 518 for Bud.  Should be fun - never built an auto tranny...but Andy has.....  

 First off thanks Sam, for all your cool projects. I noticed you touched on a possible dump bed for the trailer, off the shelf hydraulic or some Sam voodoo? I have a donor truck I have been considering making a trailer out of when I'm all done and was thinking of just using a winch and stand pole.

probably a little of both .  I picked up a full hydraulic tilt bed kit many years ago - never put it in anything (different project long ago that never happened....).  I don't even remember what make/model it is, but I remember it was complete but generic.  Our land is pretty near 'blank' - we have lots of 'scaping in front of us, and I'm pretty certain we'll want/need a sturdy trailer that'll handle some weight - it should be perfect for a dump setup.  The M-105 trailers are all that, and cheap, and it'll look cool being tugged behind Bud too .

I'm sure it will, cant wait to see it.

I've been pondering the benefits of mounting the rear leaf springs inboard a bit, directly under the frame.  As I understand, doing so narrows the track width making the truck a bit less 'stable' but more 'forgiving' on twistability, increasing flex and travel.  There won't be any lift blocks - it'll be direct-to-axle, so the stability should still be pretty good.
I presume 'towing potential' may decrease a bit....buuuut I'm not too concerned about that.  And since I need to cut/reweld the spring perches and fab up some custom leaf mounts anyway....maybe move 'em in and gain some free traction???

thoughts from the congregation??

Sam,
When I had my 1964 CJ5 & used it for motocross racing , You get the idea. I took the stock rear springs out & changed them for the jeep comando springs. These springs were a wider leaf & a longer leaf & also fewer leafs so it gave me a softer ride but with the wider leaf it gave me the same weight carrying capacity. The biggest thing was I spread the springs 5" farther apart on the axle/frame. I had the springs within 1" of the tires & they never hit the tires. That CJ was SOOOOO stable after that that I couldn't believe it was the same vehicle. It lost the body roll that these vehicles are famous for & it made it so stable & safe.I loss the feel of a roll over all the time. I think it was the biggest/fastest improvement I ever made to that vehicle.
I wouldn't go narrower on the rear spring spread.
Jim

PS; In the woods it still flexed really good for a vehicle built 20 years ago.

fair enough - I had heard it can really aid rear flex, but I'm not convinced it'd be worth the effort......and in light of my KISS principle I'll likely just leave it alone.  Hell the 63's should give me all I want anyway...

The 1999-2010 Superdutys had the vacuum/manual hubs if you bought the transfer case that had the control knob on the dash.....these hubs are junk with constant vacuum leaks in the axles so at least they thought enough ahead to design them so you could still manually lock them.  

The standard floor shift transfer case like my 07 F-350 has runs the full manual hub.

Bluebuster,

I hope you're buddy realizes by using that 09 Superduty axle that it has a bastard 8 on 170mm bolt pattern instead of the standardized 8 on 6.5" that the 70's, 80's and early-mid 90's use.  2005-2010 axles require a MINIMUM 17 inch wheel to clear the brake calipers and the crappy unit bearing these things use don't take kindly to oversize tires.  Hell they barely last 80-90K miles with stock tires and a Powerstroke sitting on top of them.  Dynatrac makes a conversion kit to convert to tapered wheel bearings and upgrades the outer stub shafts & does away with the cheap plastic and pot metal lockouts but it's gonna set him back 2 grand for the parts.

Mad Max

Sorry to get off topic on your thread.....I'm really liking the plans I'm seeing for this build up

yea, i aske him about that. he already figured that and went back and bought the whole truck. the cummins is going into his brother's 87 dodge W-350 now. he is putting the 6.0 diesel complete drivetrain in his truck.  so they are both happy.

    ...the parts acquisition continues...

 - paperwork finally cleared, got onto Ft Carson without issue, and picked up Bud's 'bed' this afternoon.........and then it joined the party out with the other misfit toys.

1968 CASE M101a1 trailer, pretty dern'd good shape.  Should work awesome.  And, the remaining trailer chassis...well that's gonna morph into a water buffalo.

That should look good. Have you figured out how close to centered the wheels will be in the wells? The bases up here frequently have them for auction. I've been considering replacing the rotted to hell bed on my 73 crew with one.

you are gathering the recipe quite nicely sam. a little winter seasoning under the tarps and start mixing in the spring?  should turn out delicious. 

Sam, you should have picked up two of those trailers.....one to cannibalize for the bed and put some off road tires on the other to make a cool off road pack mule trailer

...actually we're thinking about using a M-105, the slightly bigger version, for that

nice find. what system did you use to get it?

you figure out if your going to use hydroboost or not? i been thinking about it for mine and i think i might use a electric hydroboost design from http://www.abspowerbrake.com/index.html

stacy david used it on copper head.

Sam I have a brand new set of those taillights if you decide to change them I bought them and the flush mount buckets from a H1 to go on my Wrangler but never got to install them before I sold the Jeep.

Sam,
your Bud project sounds like it's going to be one wild unit and by the parts you've collected so far when its complete is going to be all business. i can't wait to see what wild creation you transform bud into.......

Just found this build. Good going. We will have to see who gets their cummins crews on the road first.

a couple pics someone sent me, looks like they used a trailer for the bed also





and heres a different truck

LOL....they look vaguely familiar.... ....now where have I seen those before?....oh yeah, lol....

Pineland Bob's Dodge Crew....(More Pics)(Updated 09-04-09)....

 

After seeing Nacho come together, BUD should be awesome! 

at first sight of Bob's mil-spec crewcab (thanks to squads51   ) I knew immediately which direction I wanted to go with Bud.  Bud's gonna look 'similar' to Bob's 'Beast', but I've promised him it will indeed be 'different' .  

It's gonna have the original spirit of this -



...with some of the utility aspect of this -



...with the durability and charm of this -



...with a nice subtle hint of this (my all-time very favorite of 'them' all) -



...and at first glance it'll generally look sorta like this (but different) -



Should be fun  

hey max 2nd pic of tubed bed crew cab is that a build on pirate 4x4 it looks like it ?

yup, that's jensenkennels' rig 

Can't wait to see this truck I love crew cabs and hope to have another one soon.

i love the burrito oven on it lol.........you doing the same ...jk lol

we have a couple of...umm 'unique' features for it, but the basic truck should be pretty simple and all business.  I'm building it simple enough so that anyone could get in, turn the key, and go.  Simple enough for a kid to drive it....if they can climb in.  The chassis will be very strong, but also very simple, and unlike Nacho the center of gravity should be pretty low.  About the only thing that'll be up high will be the minigun (woah did I say that out loud?!!) 
I'm really looking forward to having room for 4 adults and room for all the crap in the bed, particularly messy stuff that we don't want inside the cab.
It'll basically be all one color - yes I'm going to paint it, but it won't have custom stripes, etc - it'll all be AF Blue - simple to touch-up, and trail rash will be 'expected status'.  No tilt front clip, no super truck stuff. 
My wife and I have plenty of kewl custom work going into her '68 Charger "Trigger" - what'll very likely be the best and baddest of the fleet  .

Just curious....since you are going that route now, does that mean the mount for the GAU is now available?....just wanted to ask in case I may need to harden the mounting points for the pedestal in the bed of mine....

  - I wish .  As much as I'd love to cut felled trees in half with a gun, I'm afraid that trail accessory will have to remain on the dream list and do it the old fashioned way with a winch

man, don't tease us with the mini gun stuff. you can get non firing M-2's i do believe. not sure what kind of permits are needed. would definitely keep the tailgaters away. 

I built a Semi Auto 1919 in .308 and while it's costly to feed it's damm fun 2 of them would do the trick 

....well...at least not a real one...

bump.  updates?

not a lot lately - been tied up hard core gettin' our house finished, which we did!  Over past two weeks we've slammed down right around 1600 ft/sq of tile ourselves - saved over $15k vice the builder doing it , plus we wanted some personal sweat equity in the project. 

Closed on it and got 'da keys this past Tuesday - whoop!! .  My Mom and Dad flew in and will be here for a few weeks to help my wife and I both move in and break in the place.  Pretty fun time

congrats sam. i know you guys have to be ecstatic to get moved in.  here's hoping the weather cooperates for ya.  

congrats on the new house!!!!!! Do we get to see any pics?
Jim

Good deal!....after a few loose ends to tie up on the house....I imagine it'll be back to the shop?!....

Congrats on the house bud!

sorry for the delayed response(s) - we've been swamped moving in, etc etc.  Here's a couple pics of the new crib  -

 front -


 back -


the big room with all the windows on the top is our 'loft', a.k.a. the 'observation lounge' , and here is the stu-pid view from up there -



We took maximum advantage of the market as it is now and we were able to pull of a fresh house.  It's a pretty awesome feeling.  The big RV bay next to the 2-car is my shop for now - in a couple years when I retire from the service we're going to try to put up the actual shop across the way from the corner of the garage.  Cool beans

And yesterday, me and dad went back down to the JY and picked up Bud's frame.  Donor was a very picked over '92 diesel W250 -



...and the frame loaded on the flatbed for the journey to the 'meadow of misfit toys'...

nice house.also glad to see you got a frame for bud.good job.

The house is beautiful congrats!

Sam,
I can only say one word!!!
WOW
AWESOME house with the ultimate view!!
Thanks for sharing & a +1 for ya.

Sam that house is amazingly beautiful. The view is phenominal also. Now that the house is up hopfully these updates on bud become more frequent! 

any chance of you adopting a 45yr old son???

That house is amazing! 

house looks fantastic sam.  and the fun begins on bud. looking forward to this.

Wow, that's a NICE house, big lot and a killer view. I love the observation room. Post more pics inside when you have time !

NICE house, congrats.

Nice congrats on the house Sam.

Beautiful house! I second the observation room.

damn sam!  nice house, would love to see some inside pics.  this is getting off topic, waiting to see what happens with bud. 

need to get that front yard ripped and disked and ready for a rainy spring (mud pit)

You going to do the shop to match the architecture of the house?

Congrats on your frame find. What mods are you thinking about for the frame?
Jim

Nice, but man, I thought you were in the boonies or something! 

He was in the boonies....but the contractor clearing the trees for his airstrip got carried away a little bit....instead of just enough for a small turbo-prop, he can now set down a C-17....

thanks for all the props fellas.  Our little chunk of Colorado is actually only just about a mile off a major artery into town - we're in 'the country' but juuuust barely.  We are still in range of deliverable pizza, great Chinese food, and diesel fuel, all while in a neighborhood zoned for horses and we're all on 5 acres - it's friggin' sweet.

When my wife and I got married 3 years ago we immediately sold some toys (our '05 Hemi Magnum R/T, her Yamaha R1, and my Honda Superhawk) and paid off all our debt, and since then we've been storing as much $$$ as possible, which afforded us the ability to buy the land, which in turn added up to a major part of the equity we needed to begin construction.  We swallowed our pride, sold what we didn't "need", and this house is the very real result of it.  At the time we didn't know what exactly we'd be doing - certainly we didn't have any plans on building, but we knew for a fact that getting out of debt would be the key to anything big we would want to do, and that was mostly focused on buying land. 
It worked out really great but it sure was tight...at least as far as the banks were all concerned.  Man despite all the 'stimulus' they're sure not any more inclined to loan any $ - it's very tight and you still need a bunch of cash.  Our only debt now is the home and what's left of our 'new' ('08) car.

Our builder - Copperleaf Homes - was 100% fantastic throughout.  My wife and I are both considering working for them - her shortly and me after retirement from the service.  They think like she and I do and that's something we really like.  So maybe...

For Bud's frame, the plan is to box it almost completely from the front back, stopping just past the front mount for the rear leafs.  Then add in lots of bracing for the front suspension, and I'm near certain Jim I'll be grabbing up one of your front Uber mounts for the 56's.  Then I'm going to build a stout set of sliders/side impact rails and a set of bumpers.  No custom front tilt, nothing fancy, just a good strong core frame and some good lift (6-8" total) - don't know yet until the leafs get under it.


...maybe an ultralite

Sam,
when you put the 56" up front do you know exactly how much the front mount goes forward to put the axle back in the stock location?
Jim

not yet, but that is near the top of 'the list'  .  Judging by the little demo I did on nacho I'm guessing the front bolt will need to be 2-3 inches forward of.......well actually now that I think about it nacho's front mount was custom to start with so that baseline is moot.  Errumuhhh....Jim lemme get back wit'cha .

max/jim i should hope fully have my 56" (procomp 13511)springs done (minus steering hopefully going to a dana 60 by summer) this weekend (weather permitting), and photos posted. i will also take some measurements. i have moved the axle forward and extended the frame, but won't have to move the shackle mount. i also put the long end of the spring forward/short end towards the back. hopefully to help with pinion climb.

Patiently waiting for spring research, so that Jim may make me front hangers to use 52" springs at a near bolt in process 

We are compiling data & Spring hangers to compare differences in the models & years. If anyone has any pop top years truck or RC front spring hangers PM me. I do have the 4" and 4 3/4" front drop hangers now & should have the shackles this week.
Sorry for the hijack Sam
If anyone has any questions please PM me so Sams thread stays on track

Thanks, Jim

hey no worries on any hijack - this is info I need anyway!

while I'm at it...Snoop - can you post a quick link up here to your thread(s) on your springs? 

- M2

sorry max snoopy is kind of old school and still has figured out how to work the camara and i am in germany and cant help out but thanks alot for the leaf spring idea and you think the 2and bay door is big enough on the house but any ways sweet builds

snoopy's kid eric

max don't have a   link right now hopefully will this weekend

jim what measurements r you needing for or from a pop top i got a 78 poptop rc...any to help...i gettin ready to pull body off and stat boxing frame so i can start on my front springs...i got my d60 for up frt, 14 bolt f/f rear, rear is going to 3 linked amd the front will still have leafs ....so any help i can do i know will be returned when i need some of them blinging a$$ mounts, shackles ,etc........chris and thank for this thread

  no worries Eric.  I presume yer military out there?  Where abouts?  Yeah that bay door is a nice perk.  We elminated the 1st bay of the original 3-car garage (it's now my wife's hair salon), but we still needed a 3-car minimum garage so we had the builder graft on an RV bay (40' deep) to that far side, and for the forseable future (at least a couple years) that'll be my shop.  We got heat in there so it's pretty nice inside, painted the floor with 2-part epoxy, etc.  We're still building work benches, running wire, and moving in, so it'll be a while until I get rolling.

No problem Snoop - time is what I got lots of!

Jim, the front mount will need to be 2 inches forward of stock for the axle to be centered on the 56's.  The 56's are 26" forward and 30" rearward of the centering pin, and the 48" stock leafs are split even 24"/24".  My issue is I won't know how far to drop the mount, and likely I won't know that for a while.  But, I can safely say I'll be going 2-inches forward of stock.  More to follow

- Sam

 

hey max i gettin ready too do the same  front springs 56" now am i going to leave my ps box in stock location or is it gonna need to be moved to the 2wd location? and on to my next ? what drag link are you using? ???ill be putting a d60 under the front to get rid of my lil d44..just waiting on my axles to get this started.....

well I'd say this - if yer planning to use 'stock'-ish steering then you'll first want the leafs mounted up so the axle will be located same as stock, and on the steering mounting location, if you have the big stamped steel plate alongside the frame (not the 90* right angle mega tray style) I would delete the plate and bolt the steering box to the frame.  But I'd also definitely recommend reinforcing the frame, same location, by boxing it all in and adding in a side flex bar.  

On the drag link - I've got a crossover gig so no drag link, and my cross link was fabbed in-house.  But, I am using Skyjackers 4" drop pitman arm and I have a billet arm from Ram Off Road - local bubbas here in Colorado Springs.

For the steering here's some pics from my last rig -
  
...some action with a 1" hole saw.  (Tip:  Grind down the shank on a 1/2" drill bit to fit the pilot bit in the hole saw and it'll 'locate' the hole saw perfectly)



1/4" plate and 1" solid dowel that I drilled open to just over 7/16


make sure the plate fits




Weld the tubing to the plate and fit it to the frame




weld in place




and for good measure some inner bracing

Sam,
What did you use for your bolt sleeves?
Jim

?? you mean on the springs?  well if you're talking about the rear 56's I used last on nacho, I actually had to drill out the GM sleeves a bit to allow the bolt to go through - I think 9/16's.  The sleeve wall was really, really thick, and I think I was able to just drill 'em out to allow the bolts I already had.  I can't remember now Jim, sorry, but next go round with Bud I'll be fine tuning the gig based on the bushings that come with the 56's and 63's so...ideally...I won't have to do any voodoo to anything.

Sorry I meant the sleeves you used on the steering box mount.
Sam did you get my PM the other day on the spring hangers?

a-whoops - sorry Jim  .  Errummuhh lessee here - the 4 sleeves started out as solid 1" steel dowel, and I drilled a 7/16 inch hole straight through each one, and those became my sleeves.....at least I think they were 7/16" - whatever size the bolts were for the steering box.  I think the bolts were 7/16 and I drilled a hold between that and 1/2" - I've always sucked at math but 31/64 comes to mind...?

I'm definitely scavenging the uber steering mount to graft onto Bud's frame but I'm doing the diaginal structure tube a bit different, and doing it to both sides too (both sides will be boxed).

On the hangers - roger.  I've been trying to figure what hardware I'll need, but I'm certain I'll be hollerin' at ya when the time comes amigo  .  Yer stuff is my kind of strong .

I've been toying with the idea of supplying a steering box reinforcing kit to add to my other items. What do you think?
Jim

i think that's a great idea for those of us that don't have the tools to make it with. 

Are you going to box the whole frame or just certian spots?

thanks madmax

  - me too.  Welding is one thing, but accurately cutting 1/4" plate is another.  Jim, I'll try to compare the "diesel" frames to the older frames to see if there is any visible difference.  I know the newer ones are thicker but not sure about overall dimensions right there at the steering box.  Lemme check - stand by -


I'm planning to box it completely from the front back to just past the rear leaf front mount.  I'll essentially leave the bed portion unboxed.


'welcome 

Why aren't you boxing the whole frame front to back?

Well as best I can determine I want to keep the frame as rigid as possible under the cab and front end, but the back end can twist all it wants, so I figure I'd let the back end have what little flex there will be by leaving it unboxed.  I've really no better reason - ain't never done boxed a frame before.  But what I learned from Nacho is the frame strength counts, and with Bud's extra length and the tougher workout routine I have planned for it I'm going for all the frame strength I can get.  I just don't see the back end needing to be boxed, especially with this bigger beefier frame. 

I'll also very likely swiss cheese the inner wall a bit to gain some access points.

One of my questions for boxing a frame is this - what gauge of steel is typically used for this purpose?  I'm figuring on 1/8" steel, but maybe that's overkill?  Anyone been there/done that that can lend some insight?

Muchas grassyass!

Oh and here is Nacho's beefier parts out in 'The Meadow' getting cozy like with its new Bud-dies



- M2

Beautiful home and amazing views!

Looks like you have access to a nice boneyard too!

thanks 'fish!  Ya know it's weird.....no matter where I've been or lived, I always manage to end up with my own private bone yard....hmmmm??? 

Sam,
I would go with 1/8" or better yet 3/16". That way it's as strong as the frame. You do want to have some clean out ports tho. When the mud & dirt sits in the frame it holds moisture & starts the rust from the inside were you can't see it till it's tooooo late.
Jim

yeah wut he said

...so what does a fabricator do to his home to make it a bit unique, to make it more fun? - why he puts in a firemans pole of course!

Umm yeah - so my dad is a retired career volunteer firefighter, and I'm certain if I hadn't joined the military I'd have been a firefighter too.  And after growing up in firehouses and monkeying around on fire trucks...and sliding firepoles....well since we were building a house, why not have some fun with it?!!  So, my wife and I designed and installed a 33-foot long stainless steel firemans pole, from the 3rd floor loft all the way down to the basement.  
Two 20-foot long sticks of 3" x .125 wall DOM stainless steel, connected by a 2.5-foot long tube of 1/2-inch wall DOM stainless steel, the od machined to the precise id of the mains, plug welded into the upper half and slammed into the lower half, and the whole thing is mounted up in the rafters and it sits in a concrete base in the basement floor.  The whole thing is 33 feet long and is a total blast to slide!  We officially have a "fun house" .

From the 'high-dive' in the 3rd floor loft... if you have the guts



the look 'down the hole'...



the main-level view



'X' marks the spot - if yer as big a Disney fan as my wife and I....well you get the picture...



construction - the bare tubing



sanding 33 feet of stainless with a dry electric sander - worked great!



and the day we installed it - we had to put it in during construction so the framers could mount it and the rest of the trades could finish it in.  Lots of 'em slid it until we wrapped it up for paint and texture



too much fun!!

- Sam

Damn you Sam  As a 15 year FD veteran and currently a Lt I could only wish for a pole at home.


Let us know what your thinking Jim and put me down for one.

that is awsome!  your dad has to love that too.  too cool. 

Dad is the eldest person to slide the whole thing - 74 yrs old.  Zack, our friends' 6-yr-old little boy, is the youngest...from the mid level not the high dive


hey where there's a will...  

Cool idea on the firemans pole !!!!! Is that a swing gate I see at each floor? Sam I have to say you guys did a Awesome job on your house!!!!! Hows the furball like his new house .
Jim

yer up eeeeearly dude!  'Course so am I - I'm actually on a midnight shift keeping all y'all safe from the forces of evil!  Anyway, yup each floor has a self-closing/self-latching gate.  The furball?  You mean the cat or our two dogs?  - thay all dig the new place for sure, and we definitely like having lots of room for the pups to run around.  Thye property is a 5-acre plot, and we fenced in about an acre of it off the back side of the house for the dogs.  They love their big honkin doggie door...and so do we

Yea I'm always up early. The last few weeks 3:00am seems to be the magic hour & now the cats expect me to get up to feed them . I should sleep better knowing you guys are up keeping safe from the forces of evil in this world & THANK you for doing that!!!! I saw your kitty on the couch & I know how they can rule the house & it looks like he has a AWESOME couch to sleep on!!
Jim.

looking good sam,  love the cross bones at the bottom of the pole. but man, all this house stuff is slowing down the bud thread. lol 

Wow Sam, amazing. You and your wife sit back and have a nice relaxing evening sometime and bask in the glory of that place. It is sooo sweet man! Extremely nice place there. I like it alot. Congrats!

On the truck-
How are you putting a crew cab onto a club cab frame? The club frame steps up at the B pillar, whereas the crews have a LONG flat in the frame all the way to behind the cab. Just curious!

Eric

Looks like a stripper pole to me! 

Awesome idea Sam. 

LOL!....if that is a stripper pole, then they are going to be long legged and lean strippers!....

SAM, do you have mini-chutes for the pets with an AOD (automatic opening device, for those that don't know) attached?....set for maybe 25' AGL (above ground level)?....you know, just in case....the pole thing....no opposing thumbs and all that....

ssshhhhh i know a couple POLE MAIDS if it is ever in need of of a shining......    lol jk very nice

A club cab long bed has the same wheelbase as crewcab short bed, 149" IIRC.

While correct, your information is totally irrelevant to my point.

Hey Sam I'm not sure if you need these or not but I found em on the interwebz a while back and saved em. I think they're from a 70's FSM. May be usefull to someone.

   -  the 3" pole is a lot easier to hang onto than the standard 1.5" pole too!  Bonus!  Thanks for the props - it was a lot of fun to do.  We still can't believe we actually pulled it off and the building code allowed it.  But it was actually a 'non-issue' - deemed about the same difference as a long spiral staircase or for sure a balcony.  Even the insurance company had not a single issue with it.

When we started talking about it the big issue was...what material to make it from?  We looked at brass, aluminum, regular steel, and stainless, and 'maintenance was a big issue, so stainless it was.  It is the best 'wearing' and every time we slide it...which is actually pretty often, it cleans itself , and it's very resistant to hand prints and rust.  And...it's super strong.  Being 33-feel long the thing flexes a lot - like easily a foot side-to-side, which it needs to do otherwise it would break the upper and lower mounts, and itself.  
We thought about having it chromed but that would have been just a bit too much.  The entire gig cost about 3grand but furtunately our builder paid for it.  We took care of the logistics for transporting the tubing (which originally came from Chicago), having it made at a good welding shop in town, cleaning/polishing it, and installing it.  It was a LOT of fun, and even more so to play on the thing.

On the frame, with the back end of the cab 'resting' more or less in place on the frame, I'm planning to raise the front frame cab mounts the necesary amount to get the cab level.  Whatever that measurement ends up being will be the overall 'body lift', and I'll raise the front clip accordingly.  The mil-spec bed will be pretty much fully custom mounted with whatever 'lift' is necessary to get my arm inbetween the frame and the bed - I like to have just enough room to get a wrench in there.

Thanks for the frame specs '88 - that's good stuff


yeah for sure...it's always something! eh?  Buuuut this was our life-changing-event, and it was so very worth it.  Bud knows he's coming...but for now he's just gonna have to wait.  I'm pretty sure the rig won't get built until next year - we just won't have the funds.  We're saving up now to build the big shop and the barn, but I will be picking on it now and then, slowly getting it up to snuff when the mad money comes in.  Meanwhile, me and the missus are looking forward to jumping in the Mule and going camping, fishing, mountain biking, hiking...all those things that we've been wanting to do during the summertime that have been soaked up building Nacho and saving up for the house .

Bud'll get there - no doubt about it .

- S

and so i see the plots of the wicked mad max... ok so i'll bite, why not just use a crew cab frame? I've seen a few for sale..

...'cause I wanted the biggest/thickest/beefiest to start with, and that means the 90-93 vintage frames, also loosely known as the "diesel" frames.  They're big beefy beyotches

I think there awesome!
Thanks for sharing!

So with the big front leaf springs, one of the mods I'm considering is a shackle swap, IOW mounting the shackles in front and the fixed mount in back - opposite of factory.  Doing so would gain lots of clearance and mounting space but I'm not sure what the draw backs would be.

A couple thoughts I have are, under big extension (drop), the axle would drop rearward instead of forward, which should reduce the potential for driveshaft separation.  And with a big solid cross-over steering system, I would think bump steer would be no worse than mounting the shackles normally.

Another 'pro' would be the definite advantage for eliminating a bad caster angle.  Really...I can't think of a major 'con' to mounting the shackles in front.  Granted the shackle will be in front, up where we run into things...but that's also where the front bumper and winch mount will be so I can easily make some armor if needs be, and I can steer away from the major obstacles so I'm not too worried about schwacking the shackles.....and besides...they're made of steel and steel is strong stuff. 

Full-size Jeeps ran (and I think are still running) shackles for ever with no issues, so why not a full-size Dodge?

Thoughts?

Back in the day, the jeep folks used to swap the front shackles around claiming they would get a better ride. the theory was that with the shackle in the rear, when you hit a pothole, the spring will arc up from the non shackle end, towards the rear of the vehicle. with the shackle in the front, they claimed that when hitting a pothole, the axle wanted to swing towards the front, into the hole further.  I can see the theory they claim, but then again, the newer trucks with coil springs, and track bars would have the same bad ride. 

bump steer may actually be worse, remember, bump steer is a function of the relation of the steering box, and the axle, in a stock setup that distance will not move as much as if the shackle was in the front, then the axle will theoretically pivot from the rear spring mount, and arc forward and back.

mid-90's F-350's had the shackles on the front of the front spring if I remember right.  Another full-size to consider that the factory has done it that way.
I've also heard claims of benefit of front shackles is that the force of the spring compressing will push the tire harder into the obstacle you're trying to climb, making more traction potential.

I saw a mid 70's 3/4 ton 4x4 dodge truck with the shackles in the front of the springs that looked like a factory set up. Maybe Dodge did it for some years?

copy - and with my big crossover steering...and possible full hydro steering in the future...I'm hoping the bump steer issue will be moot.  I'm near certain I'll go this route with Bud, and if works good then I may do the same to Mack downt he road.


I think I remember that too.  Well it sure would solve a bunch of front suspension issues...

Crossover would definitely make it a moot point.

The other points may be more of a wives tale. but then again, there must be some reason that Detroit chose not to go the cheaper route and put the shackle in the front.     Especially considering that you are going to go with arched springs which will also accentuate shackle movement.

...well...it wouldn't be the first time I volunteered my truck to be a guniea rig  

I had a '75 CJ that we swapped the shackles to the rear of the spring.  The ride was much better.  What I mean is that after hitting a bump on the highway or pothole the jeep was controllable and comfortable.  Before the swap, a bump would throw the front end all over the road and I would have to saw the wheel to control it.  This was with stock springs too, no lift.

I also has an '86 f-250 with front mounted shackles and there was not issue there except it was the split swing arm axle Dana 44 in the front and I don't think that is a good example.

It's possilbe that with a big ass truck, you won't have an issue, but I would never want the shackles on the front in a Jeep if it was going to see the highway.

I had a 1964 CJ5 that originally had the shackles on the front. I can't remember why Jeep designed it that way but it was not one of there better ideas. When you hit a big chuck hole or log or sharp incline the axle is forced into that object instead of flowing back & over it. I actually bent a pair front springs in my CJ5 truing to get out of a deep mud hole. The main Leif bent 6" front of the rear spring eye giving me an additional 3" of lift after I got out of the hole. After that I did a shackle reversal so it was like our Dodges & ine front axle did flow a lot better onet objects.
Jom.

okay - so I'm surfing "Dodge Ram" video's on youtube...and I came across this one that nearly made me fall off my chair!!  It is a bit riske' - not sure I'd open it at work, and I was gonna post it in the 'boobies' thread (no 'reply' function??), but this is just to damned funny not to share!  It's not a porno even though the initial pic looks it.  This is seriously funny -

Is your girl "Ram Tough"?!!

Dodge girl in bathroom

- M2

that is to sweet.....................................

  that was funny.

omg priceless of the branded ram logo on the butt cheek, and then roflmao on breaking the sink with the head, so funny

ya know.... the more I think about it, I think I'm going to 'triple stick' the 205 so I can go front drive only.  Been thinking about the switchbacks out here carving up a mountain side, and being able to slide the front end to complete a turn might just make good sense with my wheel base.  Plus, I think it was Dave who confirmed that front burnouts are indeed cool

i like the triple stick set-up just because it looks bad-a$$!
if i was going doubler i'd definately go twin stick

BTW, it's about time this thread started talking about trucks instead of the MAD MAX compound!

I forgot to say, I remember seeing this truck in Mopar Muscle (I think) many many years ago - it has a warmed up 426 Hemi/727 under the hood - I bet it sounds awesome wide open!  I'd still prefer a diesel, but a Hemi in anything is always cool. 

A-a-a-awesome!

That is Sonny Honnegers rig.  He ran it in the first Top Truck Challenge.  IIRC it wieghed  something like 10 K.

I saw a bobbed duece and a half on tv today and looking at it I had one of those cartoon light bulbs go off in my head... How cool would a deuce and a half with a crew cab be?

It wouldn't be a Big Ugly Dodge, but it would be AWESOME!

Maybe you should go that route LOL!

ohhh now don't tempt me - I did seriously consider bobbing a deuce, but I think my little pick-em-up truck'll be juuust right

Hey I was just wondering, when you box the frame, how are you going to coat the inside of the box to prevent rust?

dip tank and frame rotisserie

Is that the only option? It seems like it would be a bit thick on the inside of the frame, but that might be a good thing. How would that effect the use of multiple coatings? If I'm not making sense, I remember on the frame of Nacho there was one layer of primer, another layer of POR-15, and then a layer of paint. Would that work in a dip tank, or would it not matter because no one is going to see the inside of the frame?

well I'm not sure how exactly I'll coat the inside of the frame - hadn't thought about it really, but the inner boxing will have access holes in it and I'll likely just reach in with a brush and slap in some basic chassis black.  I ciould powdercoat it all, and it probably wouldn't be too difficult to get it inside the frame, but getting the frame in the oven...that's the problem

I've heard of guys years ago with the jeep frames totally boxing them. Then they would take & put a gallon of paint in each frame rail & rotate it & tilt it multiple times till they thought all surfaces were covered & then drain out the extra paint.
Jim

backyard style, improvised "dip tank" and rotisserie!

some one say bobed 4 wheel steer crew cab duce?

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/deuce-modification-hot-rodding/45809-m35a2-crew-cab-2-rear-steer.html

here's how he did it
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/deuce-modification-hot-rodding/35794-double-deuce-crew-cab.html

just in case the picts dont show up he has it on the ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/M35A2-CUSTOM-CREW-CAB-W-REAR-STEER-COMPLETE-REBUILD_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem2304f7954aQQitemZ150407189834QQptZMilitaryQ5fVehicles

Man Im absolutly crazy about Duceys but even their starting to seem to big to serve a purpose ?
Trail wise,city wise,mileage wise,money wise....But I geuss if you can afford it "Why not?"

I think you should something similar to the "1 Tone of Fun" build on pirate 4x4 http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=448507

You can dip tank, pour and slosh (like coating inside of gas tank), spray through access holes like ziebart and other rust creaters inhibitors do, OR you don't even have to coat it. Ya but won't it rust?....Not if it is primered before boxing. Ya but won't the primer burn off during welding?....not if you use aluminum oxide primer.

Has bits of aluminum in it, when "burnt" transforms to aluminum oxide, that protective layer that makes aluminum dull. Also acts as a deoxidizer/shielding "flux" for the back side of the weld.

Slosh or dip method does a thorough coating, although man handling the frame around may be tricky (ya ya we want to see you build a rotisserie and dunk tank) Spraying is easy but not as thorough. Bloxide could be a fair compromise between thorough and easy.

I've got the rotisserie, but not a tank ....and no I'm not planning to build one .  I'd like to try to find a long extension tip to a paint gun with a 360* nozzle at the end and screw it onto the end of a paint gun... and just spray away.

Jensen's rig is indeed one of my 'inspirations' for Bud .  
Check out reply #137    ---> http://ramchargercentral.com/index.php/topic,125290.100.html

That would be the ziebart way. Maybe they don't have that type of business out your way? I know living in michigan, there were rust proofing shops on every corner. They use a special undercoating gun and long wands. Drill access holes all over the place, shoot goo through the holes and plug the hole with a body plug.

http://www.eastwood.com/prof-undercoating-gun.html

oh I'm very familiar with ziebart, but I'm pretty sure it is the very best way to trap water and mud and everything else right against the metal it's supposed to protect.  So, I'll just slap some paint in there and call it good.

I did wonder if Eastwood had some sort of paint wand - that's really the ideal way to go.  Maybe I can adapt a pressure washer tip to a piece of 1/8" brake line - there's always a way...

i was thinking with the clubcab duce of putting a camping area instead of a bed and using it for a tow rig. with rockwells and 50 inch tires a recovery rig if i get to stuck lol

I wonder if Eastwood's products are better? The 80 snow Commander I got for parts was Ziebarted. It was completely rusted out. Even the cute little plastic plugs they install after drilling the door sill was rusting through.

KISS all the way.

How did I get dragged into this?

...'Cummins-powered crewcab trail rig' - only so many of those being built, and I've been taking notes on yours for my own

As have most of us Crew cab owners 

dont know if you saw it, but i have a 'simple radio' that i could send your way if interested

it's cool - I don't really know which way to go on radios just yet, but I'll ping ya when time comes.  You got a pic or two you could PM me?

somewhere i do. if i cant find them on my comp, i'll snap a few new ones for you this weekend.

wellll  suck - my 518 core, the one I got from the JY, the one I thought was a diesel 518...isn't.  When I saw the core in the JY it had a 6-bolt torque converter inserted into it, which, I thought, meant it was a diesel tranny.  After trying to mock up the tranny this afternoon to the back of my 6BT bell adapter I noticed the whole mating area is too small .
So, I ask myself, if it isn't a diesel tranny, why did it have a 6-bolt converter like the diesel's have?  The two immediate possibilities I come up with are, 1) it's a gasser 518 with a diesel converter stuck in it (which fooled me into thinking it was a diesel tranny), and 2) some manner of gasser 518's had 6 bolt converters like the diesel's do.  Note - the converter does not look like a (gasser) lock-up converter, but the electric solenoid plug in has 3 pins, not the diesel 2.  I won't make this mistake again, and I hope after reading this no one else does either.

So, I offer it up to the masses - anyone know of the gasser 518's have 6-bolt converters?  maybe the 1-tons or something?  Either way...ummm I have a gasser 518 core for sale  ....aaaaand if anyone out there has a complete, rebuildable A-518 4wd diesel core ('92-93 only - I don't need a newer lock-up unit) lemme know.

Glad I'm not building Bud this weekend - I'd be all kinds of pissed off...

- Sam

Talk about your all time bummer!

not from the factory as far as i can remember. some of the internals were up graded in the last years of the 518/46re but not the t/c. i've heard/read about tranny shops doing all kinds of stuff with them.

alright - since Bud is being built a bit differently than Nacho, the recipe for 'wheels and tires' has changed, so Nacho's 16x10's and 36" MTZ's are available.

Wheels - 16x10, 8-lug, aluminum, 8-hole.  Set of 5, $400 ($80 each - if bought with the tires), $450 (if bought separate from the tires).  These will come complete with all 32 chrome lugnuts.

Tires - Mickey Thompson Baja MTZ Radials, 36-15.5 (375-65/16).  Set of 5, $1600 ($320 each).

It's a screamin' deal - first $2000 takes the whole package.  I'll deliver them within 3 hrs away from Colo Springs for a case of beer.

Prices are firm, sold only as a set of 5 (wheels or tires) but prefer to sell it all as a complete package.  I'm certain shipping would be 'prohibitively expensive'.

Tires have very little wear and have only seen trails on two occasions, and one of them has never been on the road.  
Why selling?  Very simply for what I'm planning I need to go with steel wheels.  If I sell the tires I'm just going to turn around and order set of MTZs, just 2-inches taller (unless I find a set of 40's I like).  I won't be too bummed if I don't sell the tires, but I'm sure someone out there is looking for a set of awesome 36's, and these are them.

Some pics -

When first mounted on Nacho -







Wheels were blasted and painted in a semi-flat black.  They're perfect and look wicked.



For the record, these Mickeys balanced out nice.  You had to look hard to notice any out of roundness.  For a 36" tire I am mighty impressed with these.  All 5 are already balanced and highway-ready.  75 mph is a breeze - very comfortable.  Even the road noise isn't that bad.  

- Sam

Sam,
How about 30 hour drive & 2 cases of beer?
Jim

Deflate them and send them UPS When I worked at the tire store we did that all the time.

...hey there's always a way .  I'm bettin' someone heading that way would stack 'em on their trailer for 2 cases of beer...

Sam I would to have MTs but in reality I need a lot of other items first. But that id the tire I want for the 440 RC. Right now I still have to gather all the other CTD stuff for the gold RC.
Thanks, Jim

no worries Jim - it's unlikely they'll sell anyway and if not then I'm plenty happy using what I got 

Oh hey, I talked to both Pro Comp and Superlift - those 63" rear leafs use the same 9/16 (0.57") bolts.  Any time that's good for you is good for me.

Sam,
I have a strong feeling they take the 1 1/2" diameter spring eye bushing. Can you confirm this? If they do I'll send the 5/8" grease bolts with the correct poly "T" bushings & DOM sleeves with your kit.
Jim

cool .  So lemme verify:  The Chevy 63" rear springs I'm going to use (that probably come with rubber bushings and 9/16" main bolts) - you're going to hook me up with a different set of bushings, for both the front and rear spring eyelets, to upgrade to a 5/8" configuration, which will allow me to go all 5/8" for the rear gig and keep your hardware otherwise 'unaltered'.  Did I get that right ?  It all sounds bueno to me, and Bud thanks you in advance .    

           ........wussy 9/16 bolts.........bah!
- Sam

Yea Sam we don't need any Wussy 9/16" bolts on B.U.D. when we can have 5/8" grade 8 grease bolts!!! See if you can buy your new springs with out the bushings. Yes Sam I am going to hook you up with the poly "T" bushings,Dom sleeves & 5/8" grease bolts.
Jim

        ....I love it when you talk dirty!......

All sounds good

Sent you a PM back about turbos -

Comfirmed - bushings in the ProComp 63" rear leafs are indeed 1.5" diameter, same also as the 56" springs.  So looks like we're godo to go Jim
- Sam

 

Turbos? What? Turbo turbo turbo!

Are you conceiving some MAD power for Bud?

We were discussing turbos for my CTD swap into my gold RC .
Jim

  - yup, Bud isn't going to need much more power than what came stock.  It'll get the standard tweaks, the normal upgrades, but if it ends up more than 300 hp I'll be surprised.  The more 'stock' I can keep it the simpler (and cheaper) it'll be to maintain.

Really I'm fully planning to take Red's old 300k high-mile engine, blast/clean it, re-seal it, make the normal adjustments, paint it tan, and bolt it in.  Bud's mods will be more along the lines of 'breathing' and staying cool.  It'll get a simple 12cm (non-gated) collar, HX-35 turbo...and really that's about it.  Andy already turned up the fuel and did the 366 spring, so all I have to do is fix the IP and drop it in. 

Other mods will be making sure I can safely toss the rig in a river - it'll get mods for waterproofing, mostly the breather vents, etc.  The main engine breather vent will get rerouted up and out, and the tranny will get the pump vent mod to re-route the vent up and out the top of the case.  I may develop a system to route the vents into the exhaust stack up to where the exhaust exits the stack.  Not 'into' the exhaust system as the exhaust pressure will very likely overpower the engine and tranny breathers and blow soot back into the engine.  Not good 

Basically, Bud will be 'submirsable'.

Oh, come on Sam, 300k is just barely broken in!  I know a guy with an '05 Ram that already had 300k on it a year ago, and he's shootin for 1 million miles before he thinks about trading it in. 

Pff... I think "need" is up to interpretation...

You know you "need" the twin turbo 1000 ft/lb setup in Bud...

But that's just my "expert" opinion.

no no, I need the twins and 1000 ft/lb in Big Mack so I can pull Bud, and I think I'll be riiiight about there

...however...(carrying over the impending hijack from streetmonster's thread...)...if I were to 'get wind of someone' looking for a built D60 w/ 3.54s, a pair of D70s (one w/ 3.54 LS, the other with 4.56s), and a matching set of front and rear lockers (4.56-up), and a matching set of 36" wheels/tires, well I may just get horny enough to sell it all at a song...and step up to the big leagues and build som-in' stuuupid.

...until then, or after a few tax returns, Bud'll roll on whatever I have in the shop that year.

There's a red Chevy that was in TTC XV (07); combine that machine with the one Paul (squad51) did, and that's about what I have in mind for Bud someday - that 'look' and capability - simple, and strong as hell.  

The red Chevy is around the 15:30 minute point -

FWTV: Top Truck Challenge XV

The ole wheels are turning. Sell em, go for the stuuupid! I can't wait! 

well my mind was curious about how Bud would look with 46's, and after being reminded of cleandust's RC I had a little photohack fun.  Dave I hope you don't mind me using yer bitchin' RC for a possible baseline - not a lot of blue Dodges sitting on 46" Baja Claws in here  

So, a 4-door, short bed truck, maybe on 46's - might look something like this - (My wife and I kinda like it )

Put a Utiline bed on it and you are all done!!!   

...oh what the hell...

http://ramchargercentral.com/index.php/topic,135098.0.html

How's it go??  "Go big or go home...or go nuts trying..?"

              ...it's all Steve's fault...

EDIT:  This idea is O.B.E. - Overcome By Events 

Now you just need to buy a M35A2 from the GSA.. (for parts ONLY)

     ...oh I 'been there and thought that  


              .......it's a wonder I get any sleep.....


ehh, it's a long shot that the driveline will sell anyway - I need 'x' amount to get what I'll need, and even though it's less that what I have into it that never has anything to do with actually selling stuff.  No big - it'll be a fun adventure either way, and if during research on rockwells I determine that is not what I want to do, well then I'll go with what I already got.  It's all good.

Less that 24 hours later the ad appears!



I think it's the direction needed for this build!

...it's all going to boil down to if there is any interest in what's here now, and after some time I may determine that rocks aren't the best way forward - I have a lot of research yet to do.  Tires may derail the whole rockwell thing.  Of course a lot of that comes down to $$$, but if my setup now doesn't sell then I'll be happy to build it up and drop it under the truck, and as soon as I come to that point then I'll keep it and jam on.  

keep a eye on pirat. saw a few sets there for around 1200. of rockwells that is. some say they willing to trade

copy that Ben, thanks .  Had a good chat with Steve (streetmonster) this evening and I'm definitely leaning towards rocks, but I'll find a good used set and build 'em myself.  More fun, less $$, and that should leave me a little extra for tires. 
He and I are both looking for the same basic setup - overstrong, simple driveline, easy to maintain, and streetable - brakes and steering must be easily managable, and depending on how one builds the axles that can be achieved.

Funny, a good buddy has already expressed 'interest' in Nacho's hardware for his RC - maybe. 

   - this might get all kinds of fun  

So are you thinking of regearing the Rockwells? If so, to what ratio? 46" is a big friggin' tire. But that photohack sure looks cool...

EDIT: Are you going to stick with the plan for engine mods even with the HUGE driveline?

on the ratio, actually no - I'm going to keep the standard 6.72s.  If I do this Bud's gonna be mil-spec for sure, and either way a hellova lot of fun.

On the engine mods, no just the standard power upgrades and bolt-ons.  It'll have plenty of torque, especially with the 6.72 ratio.

I've also decided to sell the current driveline 'separately'.  In other words I'll sell the 60 front end separate from the 70, locklers separate, etc. 

So, bottom line is, I got 3 big beefy Danas for sale, and a set of lockers for 4.56 gears, and the wheels tires - basically Nacho's driveline - all available.  Here's the info -

Front end -
Dana 60:  3.54s w/ Eaton Locker and Selectro Hubs and the original 8-bolt end caps.  Recently rebuilt/refreshed.  Comes with Ram-Off-Road crossover steering arm, DOM crossover steering arm, and Rockstomper ram-assist unit.  BONUS - comes with Detroit ElecTrac locker - this locker is set up for 4.56 gears, all you will need is a 4.56 gearset.  $1900 with the locker, $1200 without.  Locker alone, $800.

Rear end -
Dana 70:  3.54s with perfect factory limited slip (from '93 Cummins rig).  Also recently rebuilt/refreshed.  Leaf spring perches re-welded to raise pinion angle slightly to account for RC wheelbase.  Will need brakes but otherwise complete.  $700
                      - plus -
Dana 70 dually:  4.56s, excellent condition (from '82 D350 Ram).  Comes with Detriot Locker, ready to install.  Overall this axle is 2-inches wider than standard srw D70, which is why I was going to use it.  Monster 12"x3" brakes.  Both D70 axles, complete, with Detriot Locker, $1300.  Locker alone, $300

EDIT - rockwells not going to work - keeping these axles for this project

Still available are the wheels and tires -

Wheels / Tires - set of 5, complete -
Aluminum 16x10 8-lug wheels, blasted and painted, strong and light weight.
36x15.5 Mickey Thompson Baja MTZ Radials, been to the trails twice, barely any street time, maybe 500 miles.  One has never been on the ground.  Complete set with lugs, $2000 ($450 for the wheels, $1550 for the tires).

I'll deliver it all pretty much anywhere within reason, and I can be pretty reasonable when it comes to road trips , I'd just ask for fuel, the usual.  

- Sam
 

Well now you got me  . I am half way to that 60 front (without the locker), so I will be in touch. We may get to share that beer after all however I bet it flies away before I get all my pennies rolled. BTW I think your monster still needs a Utiline bed    

I think you need to change BUD's tag in your signature to be "Mil-Spec Trail Conquerer."

And remind me... now that your going with Rocks, I'll ask... Why not bob a deuce? It just seems that Bud is moving more and more in that direction.

...simple -'cause a deuce ain't a Dodge

      ....or a crewcab .

yeah what he said.........lol jk

doesn't Roger-Xtremetownie, run rocks under his rig? You know with the extendable front end and all?

...the only thing that will derail the rockwell idea is trying to maintain any semblance of street manners, even degraded street manners, and the single biggest factor in that is tires, followed closely by brakes.  Only thing available is bias plys, and they leave a lot to be desired for something I want to take to the local trails without hauling it.  Waiting for miles for the flat spots to even out will probably get old fast, and often.

I'm trying to get an idea of how 46" bias ply tires will 'perform' on a semi-regular basis, asking good friends about their rigs and manners.  If I get a lot of horror stories then that may sideline the big stuff idea.  I was sold until today talking with a few sources about tires - not great but not unexpected either, I just dind't figure it'd be as bas as some are saying.  Awesome off road but aweful on any kind of street time, and that alone may do it.

If I stayed with the big danas and 38's I could still keep great street manners, get to the local gigs, do the gigs, and get home.  If I can sufficiently determine that 46's, particularly Baja Claws, will give me what I want, then I'll keep thinking 'big'.  If not, I'll stick with good ole danas and be happy.

Braking systems have the same issues, and while super-spendy stuff is available I'm not sure I want to go there, let alone being 'able' ($$$) to go there.  It'll probably boil down to $$$, as usual.

It's always something...

- well bring on the suck  - I just got off the phone with the folks at Mickey Thompson, and I just learned that the tire size I want to use, the 46x19.5/16 baja claws.....are being discontinued...or are soon to be.  Plus, I asked them about the drive-to-the-trails-and-back-ability of a big bias tire, and their recommendation was both good and bad.  First, they didn't recommend a tire that big - the bias plys - for any length of highway use, but for off-road there isn't much better.  Sooooo....

.......so that means my decision to go BIG may have just been derailed.  It has boiled down to this - if I want to haul my truck everywhere I want to use it, big rockwell axles and big bias ply tires would be perfect.  But if I want to drive it around on a paved street.....pretty much at all........ya wanna keep a good radial tire.  Now, this isn't news...at least the radial tire part, but the discontinuation of my favorite tire size.....well that just about sealed it.

So, if I want to drive Bud to the trails and back, the smart approach is to keep what I have and keep my sweet 36" MTZ radial tires, which so far have done everything I have wanted them to do.  Bud won't be much different than Nacho other than longer and a bit wider, and with a lot more 'gear'.

In fact...as I'm typing this I've decided that despite how much I want to do rocks and hook up Bud with some major meats, I simply just can't justify it.  I wasn't too concerned about brakes on deuce axles - those can be had and when coupled with hydroboost they work pretty dern'd good.  I'd have had to do a 20-inch diameter x about 14-inch wide wheel to clear the calipers and keep the backspacing I'd have needed - that was okay too.  But not being able to reliably drive the dude 3-hours to and from our local trails....well that is a show-stopper.

Sure there are other tire options other than the claws, but the bias ply issue will still be prevalent, and I'd have to do at least a 44" tire to get any kind of speed - just too many negatives.

So, there it is - it'll be big beefy dana axles for Bud and he'll just have to like it.  Aww darn...  

 
 

What about running something like 39s? Still big, but not too big.

that's basically what I'm going to do - stay under 40" tires, but doing that means I need nothing more than danas.  I have 36s now, and I'll keep those until I need a fresh set, and then I'll go up to the 38" MTZ's - absolutely fantastic tire, and direct from the horses mouth there's no end of those in sight.

So, I'll keep/build/use what I have now - Bud'll ride on solid danas and (eventually) 38's, and I'm certain I'll be quite content with that .

Sorry Steve - looks like I'll have to keep drooling on your stuff instead of my own

Basically you are gonna have to pick a tire size that puts you at good cruising speed/rpm if you are gonna drive this on the highway.  I have a feeling under 40" will put you too high in rpms.

I feel like I'm going to enjoy watching this as much as the nacho build. Good luck with the build. I'll be following.

those were my thoughts too Sam, and according to my gear-speed calculator, in overdrive and 4.56's, on 38's, going 65 mph Bud'll be hummin' along at a perfect 1800 rpm, and streetable all day long.  Don't get much better 'n that.

And that is with the aftermarket brakes? That is really too big. 4.90 gears would be a little too low. Sad to say but I agree Rockwell's are just to much overkill I guess. Sure would look nice under there though.

Would this be a bad time for me to mention that there is a Ouverson Engineering 4.90:1 gear set for the Rockwell 2.5?
https://store.oemaxle.com/product_info.php?products_id=90&osCsid=f28df9d21c90ef17a7402d09d2d707a7

It's too bad on the tires. There's no way you could pick up like six of them for the time being and then shop around for a different brand when the need arises?

And I was never really trying to dissuade you from anything, just making the observation that with the Rockwells and the huge tires you seemed to be halfway to a deuce anyways!

naw yer good Bruce - I knew about them, but if I'm staying with a 38" tire then I just don't need rocks, especially when I already have 4.56 danas right here.  Besides, to get rocks where I'd want them (awesome brakes and steering, just to name the two biggies) is almost prohibitively expensive.  No worries man  .  Then there's the street-legality issue(s) that could come up with bumper heights, headlights, and having 10 inches of 'tire' sticking out both sides of the truck .  The rears would be 100% 'exposed'.  The 38's are going to be bad enough .  Nope, the 'streetability' needs to be maintained, and that means radial tires.  Too bad I didn't know that before I went and posted and deleted ads, but I guess that's just how I roll.  Not a lot of grass grows under my feet - it just get's trampled to death.

I have a feeling that after Bud is rolling I'm just going to love the setup and I'll love the overall manners, and I'll probably never go up from there - it'll be just right.  As much as I'd love to have deuce axles, with the tire 'limitations' and considering my overall plans for this truck, the plan eliminated itself.


Six 46" baja claws?  That'd be like $4700 (including wheels) - no thanks .  4 was bad enough .


Oh there's nothing keepin' me from bobbin' a deuce down the road...  One truck at a time tho

I just figured 4 for under the truck, one spare, and one to keep in the garage 'cause they're discontinued. At least that's one way to justify it...   

It's not like the Danas are exactly "wimpy"

Hey I think I can still find you a front 60 - want me to keep an eye out?  What ratio are you after? 

Yes please, although I am currently looking for a CTD donor as well. would like to find a 4WD one so it would be one stop shopping but that will depend on finances. So if I have to do it one piece at a time a 3.55 D60 front would be a good start. Sorry that your project didn't work out. It would have been a fun one.

still fun, just 1000 lbs lighter .  I'll definitely keep my eyes peeled, and for a donor rig too.

I should have mine under the truck by this time next year Sam, then you'll be ready to put a set under Bud.. LOL

I'll bring Bud down there, we'll wheel together, and I'm sure I'll get (re)hooked

Have you looked at the 41" Irok radials for use with the Rocks?

I did, and they're not a bad tire, but if I'm going to get big tires I'd want a big tire.

The dream is still 'alive' to put Bud on rocks, just not now.  I know I'd have to have two sets of wheels/tires - one set for the street driving/mild wheeling and the other for those times when I plan to haul the rig for the serious diggin' and breakin' stuff.  I'd likely have a good fat set of 38's for the street, and at least a set of 44's for diggin'.  I'd likely set up the axles with the 4.90 gears (not far off from my 4.56s), which would still allow me to get around town and if the brakes are good enough to cruise on the highway.  To do what I'd want them to do the axles would need a lot of high-dollar upgrades, and that's just not doable now.  Most of my R&D is going to be in brakes.

I'm still looking for a decent set of rocks - just a used f/r set (to take up room in the shop...), but it'll be quite a while until I can do the upgrades and pull that trigger.  Meanwhile I'll use what's here and get it on the road.  It'll be rolling by spring '11.

 

okay...so if my calculations are correct.....actually if Blasphemous' calculations are correct  ......with the 56's installed up front, Bud's front lift will turn out something like this -



Now granted that is without any engine weight or at least 1000 lbs more of frame/chassis/body on top of it (my big crewcab with a Cummins as compared to SD's RC with no engine), but that's about how high Bud will be, and that is with a 40" tire.  Gleans all kinds of insight as to how things will look.  Not sure I want Bud that tall, but the front pinion angle looks good on S.D.'s rig so I can assume that Bud's front mounts will have to look similar to what he has here.  I talked to Pro Comp and they do not make a 2" lift spring that is 56" long, just the 52's.  Granted I'm fully planning to remove a single leaf off the bottom like I demo'd on Nacho, and that'll help, but I'm going to have to consider ways to get the front ride height down a bit, or else just be comfortable with whatever it turns out to be.  The back end will be easy - I'll adjust the ride height to match the front...somehow.

That truck in the above pic looks like it needs to come down 8" for the type of wheelin you do.  I would think you want less lift and more trimming if you are going to be off camber.  That rig above "Florida Mud Truck Style" which is great for flat mud, but not scaling mountains.

...well...that's what got me thinking.  The angles look good, meaning that pro comp 56" spring would have to be mounted like he has pictured - the rear shackle looks good and the front mount is where it needs to be in order for the pinion angle to be right.  So, I need to either get happy with this much lift (even if it will compress a bunch under full weight), or......search for a different spring. 

My initial thoughts are to maybe use a similar spring with less lift - like a 2" lift, and mount it the same way.  Mounted properly (like pictured) I won't need a lot of arch in order to get the lift I'll want, nor to get the flex I want.  I'm more concerned with extention verse compression. 

But, another consideration is, if I (eventually) go to rockwells, that much lift woud be just about right.... ....

and this is a repost from earlier in this thread, but it applies now so here is what I found out with Nacho and the 56" mock up, and with a fully assembled rig with a Cummins stuffed in -

The big difference is...the pinion angle.  Blasphemous' righ looks right, and its front mount is lots lower than my mockup - keep that in mind -

First, the stock 56" pack did in fact 'fit' - here it is simple shoved under the frame, not mounted to shackles, etc - this is roughly how it will look fully extended (again this is just WAG'ing) -



and here is what it looks like with full weight - it compressed pretty well but not as much as I thought it would -



...so I'm looking at it and I was surprised it didn't compress further than this and I wondered how it would react with less leafs (remember this is the standard 5-leaf ProComp 4" lift rear spring for a Chevy - they're cheap and 'available'), so I pulled off the lower two leafs, and reinstalled it -

yeah...it lost 1 inch of overall lift - that's it.  This 3-leaf, 56" spring is fully suspending Nacho's weight easily - easily doing the same job as the uber 7-leaf short pack that was in there.  And oh by the way, I tested the gushiness of the suspension by pushing down on the front bumper - yeahhhh it fealt GREAT - plenty of nice 'give', good and bouncy - plenty capable for suspending this much truck and it's nicely 'in' the spring - not 'on' it like a buck-board ride we're all used to.



and to show what would need to be done for the rear shackle, here's the basic idea -



I'm moving the body mount up, probably making one from scratch and mounting it upward so as to eliminate the 3-inch lift block all together, and that should make plenty of room for the shackles to do their thing.  Here's what it looks like under weight with a 36" tire - not a bad lift at all



If I need more lift I still have those two bottom leafs that I can reinstall.  Good discussion points...

- Sam

Forgive my ignorance but what is the advantage of a Chevy rear leaf spring that has to be made to fit over just a Dodge lift kit that fits?

no worries - the basic idea is I want longer leaf springs under my truck, period.  Front and rear.  But doing that means looking at different leaf springs (non-Dodge), because there isn't much avaialble for a Dodge other than stock replacements, and nothing at all is available for a modified Dodge spring - there basically isn't any such thing.  Stock replacement is fine, but the longer springs offer much to be desired over the stock Dodge springs.

A leaf spring is a leaf spring - they all do a specific job, and if I want a longer spring I have to look at other applications for leaf springs, which means Chevy or Ford.  I also wanted to find a spring that I could replace easily (nothing custom in nature), quickly (available locally or quickly by ordering), and as inexpensive as possible - and that means picking something that they make a lot of, and that means Chevy.  So I'll make my frame modifications once, and never have to do them again.  

So, I (and many others) started looking at other leaf springs on the market that met those criteria, and there are a lot of Chevy springs to choose from and they are very affordable, and they are usually either in stock or a day away from my local 4-wheel Parts store.

I also went to the JYs to look at what Ma Mopar did on the 2nd gen trucks (94-up), and I discovered the leafs under the back of those trucks is 63" long, meaning the factory finally made a chassis upgrade with these newer models, and a longer rear leaf is one of those upgrades.  

In general, the longer the leaf is the better the ride tends to be.  Springs will carry weight, and a 56" Chevy rear leaf pack will carry the same weight as a stock Dodge front leaf pack.  So, I wanted the better ride quality while carrying the same weight, and I wanted to be able to replace the springs when necessary with something easy to get another of, and so I'm modifying my frame mounts so all I will have to do is 30 minutes of unbolting and rebolting a leaf spring pack, and I'm done.  No custom leafs to be made, no long wait times, and no mortgages to be taken out to afford them.

In the end I'll have a big truck that will have a very simple, strong, and 'inexpensive' leaf spring suspension system that is easy to maintain with no custom fabrication requirements, and I'll also gain the added bonus of better off-road flexibility as is common with a longer leaf spring.  Bonus .  

Now I understand. So do you have to do something for wheel hop/ torque flex.

 depends on how much torque you have and how many leafs are in the pack itself.  A 3-leaf pack will 'wrap' (torque flex) worse than a 6-leaf pack, etc.  In my case, I'm certain I'll have enough torque to twist an axle clean out from under a leaf spring unless the u-joints explode first, so I'll certainly need something designed to counter that. 
I'm planning to have just enough leafs to support my trucks' weight, and that will likely mean I'll pull at least one leaf out per corner, maybe more, but I won't know the exact specs until the truck is nearly done.  But to compensate for wrap I'll very likely have to fabricate anti-wrap rodsat each corner that will ride with the leaf pack but also prevent wrap at the same time.  I haven't designed those yet but I've seen several versions on the market.  Since nothing exists for a Dodge, let alone a Dodge with non-Dodge springs, I'm certain whatever I go with will need to be fabricated.

Alright, I'm just finding the BUD thread so if you've discussed this already, my apologies.

If you are worried about keeping the CG low on BUD, and you looking at some massive lift to clear the tires, have you considering doing some pretty serious fender reshaping? ... i.e. reshaping the entire fender area to stuff the big meats and have it look nearly stock.  Dodges of this era have itsy-bitsy little fender openings.   You have the skills to pay the bills and lifting the rig up that high is going to make the 3hr drives to and from the trail significantly less fun ...

Longer leafs will add to flex, if that wasn't already mentioned.

I like low and big tires.  I think the next truck I build will have maybe 6" of lift and 44's.  Something I have always wanted to try was use stock longer springs and get a little lift from hangers and have alot of drop but limit the up travel.  Major cutting and run big tires.

I am definitely trying to keep the truck 'lower' verse 'higher', and along with that I'm going as wide as possible - that's one of the reasons I really like rockwells - they're FHAT.  I'll make the track as wide as legally possible when that time comes, and I believe that is just shy of 100 inches?  Something like that.  Rockwells + deep wheels + 19.5" wide tires = right around 90" or so wide - coolieo.

As far as the leaf spring mounts, I'm looking at doing mods to the front 60 to account for pinion angle.  I'm not too hip on the way deep down front mount...

Sam, being the truck driver I am, if I'm not mistaken the legal max width can be no more than 102" (8'6").. But when I put my rocks under mine I'll keep it no more than 96 inches wide..  Steve

Sam / streetmonster 96" is the max width for all roads, 102" on most truck routes  so Sam your thoughts on 90" is right on the money to keep the evil  eye of the law off of you, as if bud won't draw enough  attention

that's two doses of good news - excellent fellas, thanks!

snoopy1964 is right.. I checked with a D.O.T. Trooper (DIESEL BEAR) friend of mine yesterday and 102" is for trucks and 96" is for everything else.. I was'nt sure on that so I had to ask him to be sure, I knew the max on my big truck was 102" so I just assumed it was the same for everything else.. Thanks, snoopy1964..

Sam, have you been looking for a high pinion front D60? i think finding one or saving for a new custom one might be a big headache saver. that's unless you have gone back to the idea of Rocks. i know you have gone back and forth on that, hard to decide on i know. 

Sam  for the leaf springs for bud you might want to get a set out of a jy to mock up. i am almost done with my 56/63" swap. with the 4" lift the top of my front fenders are just above eye level and i'm 5'7". with the 3" body lift my 36" tires are below the rockers.  alot taller than i thought it would be.  i'll have pics probably monday (waiting for rear shackles).

Steve i am also a otr driver (think big orange and slow) and have almost gotten caught on back roads where 102" trailers were not allowed only 96" or less.
Brian

I can list you many highways, both US, and Interstates, that 102's are not allowed.

I never heard of other drivers having any problems with width here.. The biggest issues here are weight.. I can haul 88,000 lbs on state highways and 80,000 on the interstate and when I'm pulling my dump trailer I can't even haul 80,000 on the interstate due the wheelbase, (BRIDGE LAW).. Sorry for the highjack Sam...

no worries about hijacks fellas - this is all good, need-to-know info for anyone wanting to go BIG.  Bring it on .

That's a good idea on the leaf springs Brian. Seeing the pics of Swamp Donkey has really got me thinking - I'll be looking for yours too.

I called Pro Comp and they do not make a 'flat' 56" leaf spring...which naturally poses the question of who does?  The answer to that question is my current research project.  I'd be happy with a stock replacement but so far most seem to only offer lifted springs.

Doesn't Deqaver do custom work? If not there's a place local to me in St Louis MO that has a good reputation, though I've never dealt with them http://www.saintlouisspring.com/

I have had Saint Louis spring do a couple sets of leaf springs for me, great prices and even better service

Before you make a final decision on the springs I would recommend calling Alcan Spring in Grand Junction.  They know their stuff and make all kinds of springs.  I know that $$ is a good reason to go with off the shelf chevy stuff, but it still might be worth a call to Alcan for ideas and options.

FWIW, I am loving my 'whimpy' 35" shoes.  They take my truck all kinds of places it shouldn't be.    and still take me down the interstate when I need to.  Great all around manners.  i hate to think what I would try with 40's. 
Looking forward to wheeling with BUD. You know you need a Golden Crack pic. with BUD. 

I'll look into that Ken, thanks for the tip.  They may be just the ticket


without a doubt!

Couple of fresh ideas to toss out there...  

I'm planning to run three batteries in this rig - two identical main batts, separated via mega switch, connected with 12v swi power, and a 3rd deep-cycle batt in the bed for 'accessorys' (things I need juice for when the engine is off, like area camp lights, cooler, etc).

Second, I'm deleting all the steering column 'ignition' features.  12v switched and accessory power will be activated via a new fresh dash mount toggles, as well as the few engine features that Nacho had.  I'll be looking for a generic, keyless, basic new steering column that only needs power for turn signals and horn.  Flashers can go on the dash.  Start will be via big push button on dash.

My Demon's been running this configuration for years and it's been great; so shall Bud.

Lastly, are my pics and avatar showing up for y'all?  I can see them fine but word on the street is I may be the only one.  

- Sam

Sounds like a good plan to me.

I can see your avatar, must be on Pat's end..

M35A2 (Deuce) or M998 (Humvee) steering column?....fairly modern, stark, no frills and has that military flair....

Avatar is fine....haven't seen any pictures lately though....

grab a Rod & Custom or similar mag and browse the ads and you'll find some new steering column choices, Flaming River comes to mind.  there'll also be plenty of other ads that i'm sure will catch your attention for one reason or another

Thanks Donk.  Flaming River was the only one I had ever heard of, and they have some mighty nice stuff.

that's along the lines of what I was thinking too Paul Agree - great minds Wink.  Turn signals aught to be fun... Grin

Signal-Stat non-self canceling turn signal/flasher combo....clamps to the column shaft/housing....or something like this....

Universal Turn Signal Switch
[LL-305]    $32.95 $24.95
Universal Turn Signal Switch
Click to enlarge

Universal Turn Signal Switch
7-wire unit for vehicles with combination stop and turn signal lamps requiring brake light circuit. Includes built-in pilot lights to indicate left and right turn Chrome-plated lever Heavy-duty die cast housing. Hazard warning switch with hazard pilot light. Supplied with universal steering column clamp. Fuse not included. Chrome finish.

    * Universal Turn Signal Switch (fits all cars)
    * Seven color coded wire for easy Hook-Up
    * Installstion instructions printed on the box

Universal Turn Signal Switch    Universal Turn Signal Switch from the following site:

automotive-hardware.com

just some ideas....

they have 'em in black too - I'm thinking this is how I'm gonna go

http://automotive-hardware.com/universal-turn-signal-switch-black-p-307.html

and while 'looking' at columns I came across these -

http://www.ididitinc.com/universal_steering_columns/tilt_tele_column.htm

I'm likely tho to just use a simple, basic column.  The more I dig the more I realize that if I think 'Jeep' that's the proper mindset for Bud - a big, 4-door, mil-spec Dodge "Jeep".

EDIT:  Bingo - found my column http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/product.php?productid=1301&cat=65&page=1

...and my steering wheel - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/GRT-332/

Not bad - for about $250 I can get a brandy-new steering column/wheel/and turn signal assembly that is strong enough to both pull myself into the truck and hold onto without worrying about breaking it.  It'll be perfect .

I like it - a new, simple, and strong column, fresh new turn signal switch and steering wheel

so I'm trying to determine Bud's 'electrical' needs for main batts (B+), 12v switched power (12vs), and deep cycle power (DC).  For other-than-standard stuff, here's my list so far -

Dash-mounted switch:  FSO (12vs), 12vs main power/column, starter (push-button), fog lights (12vs), front floods (12vs), belly floods (DC), tranny cooler fan (B+)

Winch (B+)

Deep Cycle battery power:  Bed accessories, belly floods (dash mount switch), under hood light (mobile magnetic-mount), area set-up lights (mobile magnetic-mount, stored in bed)

12vs:  Fuel filter heater

What I'm planning to delete:  KSB, grid heaters

I'd like to find a way to do a simple, stand-alone A/C system...

SAM for the stand alone ac check out a semi jy. semi's usually have two ac's one for the cab and one for the sleeper with its own controls. and since freightliner was/is part of dalamier it might be easy to hook up to a dodge compressor.
Brian

Another way to consider is what Leon mentioned to me while we were talking about my RC....auxiliary/rear A/C from a Grand Caravan or similar....

possibly
http://www.vintageair.com/

I know the latter Mexican RC's had a rear air system. Might be a option to look into as well.

Sam,
Why are you thinking about deleting your grid heaters? Doesn't it get cold where you are?
Jim

It's all Joe's fault - he has been 'testing' the heaters "usefullness".  The heaters suck a LOT of life from the batteries just before the moment the batteries are needed most - to start the engine.  As well, he has started his engine in sub-zero temps without the heater and had very good results.  Bottom line is...because of the amp draw on the batteries, it appears the 'toaster' may be doing more harm than good.  'Starting power' seems to be the key, not a small portion of warmed up air, and so I'm intending to divert all power to the starting power and eliminate the heater.

But, the other side of the story is...because I'm doubling up on the batteries...tripling up actually...I can very likely get away with keeping the heater and still have plenty of battery power.  One trick I may employ is, during the very cold starting...I may just try to start without the heater first - max batt power attempt - and if that doesn't work, then I'll cycle the heater (it'll be on a separate switch so I'll keep manual control), and then try again.  The bonus would be that the engine would have already rotated several times and be 'loosened up', making the second 'heater' attempt likely more successful.

I suppose if I keep the heater on a separate switch then I'll at least have it if I need it, but like Joe has demonstrated I'm likely not to need it, maybe ever.   

That's a good idea to keep them in there & put them on a switch so you can turn them off & on when needed. I also think they also cycle while the CTD is running & not up to temp yet.
Jim

Yer probably right, and it's just a switch and wiring - I gots room .

Decisions, decisions, decisions.  Yesterday I swung by the JY that I got the 518 from and traded across for another tranny, this time a diesel one.  But, it's also a bit newer one - it's marked 1996 and I think that makes it a 47RE -





...and this curious little doohicky on the side makes me wonder just where this little tranny has 'been'...?  Maybe it already has some go-fast(er) goodies inside...



Now...I got the thing solely for business/mockup purposes...but the question now is should I build this up and put it in something?  The only two candidates for it are Bud and Oxx, neither of which "need" a lock-up tranny nor have the wiring to manage it.

Bud doesn't need a lock-up - I'm not planning to tow anything major with it and it simply won't need it, and Oxx...well Oxx might benefit from a lock-up simply on an efficiency basis, making maximum use of the 4bt to eventually go in.  So I'm leaning towards using it in Oxx.

One question I pondered is...hypothetically of course...does a 47-series tranny have to have a lock-up converter....or could one use a non-lock-up with the matching thin engine adaptor?  Just a question...

- Sam

You can swap the rear clutch/input shaft for a non-lockup unit if you don't want lockup, but if it's a 47RE there is no way to use it without a PCM, it won't shift on it's own and toggle switches won't work either..

Look at the trans plug on the rear of the case, if it has three wires it's a 47RH AKA 618, more than three is a 47RE.

 - it's a 3-wire, cool.  Well I suppose I could just wire it up same as I did for Red and use a pressure switch, and wire both the od and lock-up to engage on the same input.  Wouldn't get much more simple or efficient as that.  Hmmm, that's not bad

Yes that is a 47RH, you can wire the overdrive and lockup to a pressure switch and turn them on/off whenever..

Just don't let Joe S know you have a 618, he has been looking for a core for a long time.

....eeeeeeexcellent.


sorry Joe...but I'll keep my eyes open for one for you.  There just might be another down here.  This one was just a core but I'd bet there's another maybe still in a truck.  I'll have a gander next time O'm down there.

hey sam, im doin something like this in my 76 rc 2wd project. 

http://www.thehotrodcompany.com/shopnow/show_search.asp?image1.x=17&image1.y=19&keyword=2987F+2988F

Have you thought about LED for aux lighting? They are super efficient when it come to amp draw and burn time. 

...soooooo did I say something wrong?  Can anybody tell me why the thread on Oxx is locked???

I thought you locked it, I was going to reply about the 518 'till I saw the thread was locked..

nope not me.  The consensus is it got locked by mistake.  No biggie

I kept mine in since it appears the element may be integral to my intake cover, unlike newer "plate" types. I will have to look more closely. I am going to buy a "spare" and rig it to a small wooden handle and some jumper cable clamps. Then I will have a 200amp "load tester" for various uses, or dialed back to 100amp by only connecting one of the 2 grids. (for portable shop use, not mounted to truck)

In mean while I haven't run it sub-0, just to ~20-25F. Started much faster. I have never had a problem with the engine cranking for more than about .5 second before it fired up anyways. (I learned the crack the gas pedal trick long ago, which reduces cranking to almost nothing)

What was happening in my case, the heaters seem to run in BOTH the run/start position. You will have guys denying this accusation or claiming there is a wiring fault, although my wiring diagrams seem to indicate the heater relays are powered in both positions.

This proved to be horribly fatal the day I cycled them 3 times, went to crank the engine and the grids decided to kick in as I hit the starter. I got a bunch of rapid clicking, lights went out and I was stranded.

It is quite possible if my dual batteries were in top shape, they could have supported the starter and the grids simultaneously (500amps plus draw) Even then, it would still be abusive on the batteries.

There are other possible solutions such as snipping the run/start wire from the solenoids and adding a run only wire, which still allows automatic function since pcm controls the ground side only, or I can manually toggle, or I can replace batteries more often.

I refuse to replace batteries more often, that's not a real solution. I prefer not to have toggles all over the place. I did not know they were on a run start circuit until I started mapping out my ignition switch to hot wire it after someone broke in last week and destroyed the ignition tumbler.

Glad I mapped it out, I found other factory circuit flaws and just happen to catch the switch in beginning stages of burning out. Now I know I need 3 relays for the factory 7 pin ign switch. 1-run/start circuit, 1-run circuit, 1-run/acc circuit, the start circuit already has a factory one, 2 of the other pins are feed lines from battery, and last pin is a diagnostic ground to activate all of the dash lights. It already has a dedicated relay for the blower motor, thanks to a safety recall of dash fires (why couldn't they do this for the 1st gens too!?!?!)

(PS, I think the 1st gens ignition switch is wired almost identical, and may even have the same color wires. Atleast the late model 1st gens with plastic column shroud and tilt wheel)

---

If your truck requires extensive cranking in the cold, you need the grid heaters to possibly reduce cranking time. It is possible the 1st gens grid heater is located on a run only wire and does not even interfere with cranking. In my case it would cause no crank or slow crank and is absolutely a hindrance, not any assistance.

According to my sources (which may be wrong) It appears as if the heater runs off of a relay direct to battery. The relay is triggered through the run start circuit and powered any time key is on.

The heater is a variable draw unit, but up to 300watts (25-30amps fusible linked)

It has no pcm or other switched controls, "constantly on".

No not exactly. It has a self contained control unit. A ballast resistor of sorts. When it is 40* resistance is minimal and current flows freely to heat the fuel. If more cold fuel continues to cool the resistor, current flows up to the max rate. Once the engine heats up, the vehicle sits w/o fuel flow, or otherwise the fuel is allowed to heat to 80*, the resistance goes up enough to practically cut off current flow. It will not go completely on-off, but will vary the current based on load to keep the fuel filter above the 40* waxing point.

No toggle switching needed. Provided it a relayed ign hot and appropriate grounds, you are done.

hey Sam, did you see the ford i shot pics of over the week end? right up your alley. 

http://ramchargercentral.com/open-discussions/this-is-a-4x4s-barbeque/

crap, yes I did Dave - I forgot to post about that - that rig was pretty awesome, you're right, right up my alley!  That whole gig looks like a lot of fun - I'm hoping the RCC Texas gig next summer will be like that

okay so I have a choice of transmissions that can go in Bud - a 46rh or a 47rh.  The difference is a lock-up converter.  Whichever one does not go in Bud will very likely go in Oxx.  So, here's my options:

Bud:  6bt Cummins with either a 46rh or 47rh, 4.56 gear, 38" tire.  65 mph = 1800 rpm.

Oxx:  4bt Cummins with either 46rh or 47rh, 4.10 gear, 32" tire.  65 mph = 1900 rpm, 75 mph = 2200 rpm.

I believe the 4bt's enjoy a bit more rpm than its big brother so I think my rpms will be just about right with both configurations, and either tranny, but, Bud will be pushing about 2000 more pounds and at least a foot more lift.  So Bud will be 'using'/'needed' more power to maintain speed, but a 46rh can easily handle that - Nacho proved that and it had 3.54's.  Also, fuel economy in Bud is 100% irrelevant.

Oxx will be a daily-driver, oriented on economy, and I believe Oxx will get better fuel mileage with the lock-up converter.  So I'm leaning on keeping Nacho's 6bt and 46rh together (currently in Red) and dropping both as-is right into Bud's frame.  Later on, source a 4bt, do a nice rebuild of the 47rh, and drop both in Oxx when the 318 blows its top.

Thoughts from the congregation? 

- Slambo 

All 47RH should have the converter replaced. Yes I know more expensive than non l/u variants. Use your favorite brand, goerends or DTT, either one are highly recommended. Needs some valve body work to keep the l/u tight, nothing major.

All in the quest to keep the converter cool. Anytime there is a difference in speed from input shaft and trans, you get heat.

This would be even more relevant with towing heavy, both on accel and decel.

Hmm, that makes it a tough call. L/U is better for heavy towing/reliability, but it could also be better for mpg.

If you put the lockup trans in your trail rig, can the trans be manually locked?  That would be a trail advantage if you are manually able to lockup the trans in any gear.

Yes and no.

Above 12mph I believe. Below that I think there is a hydro override.

I actually do not want the lock-up on the trail - I rely on the converter stall as a bit of a 'cushion' to absorbe driveline shock, and I use a bit cooler to make up for it.

The whole time Nacho was at Moab the tranny never even got close to getting hot - not once.  But of course with the doubler there wasn't much of a strain on the tranny.  hardest part was stopping and going down hill - had to bump into neutral every single time.  Didn't like that at all but I had no choice, so the cure this go round is hydroboost.  That should cure any braking issues.

Plus the BT4 will sound like a wound-up frito lay van coming down the road!

Sam, are you measuring line temps or pan temps? I'm hoping you say line temps between trans and cooler inlet.

no it was pan temps, but again very little 'load' so I'm pretty certain it was accurate enough.

All I know is the fluid can be 100º hotter on the outlet and tends to rise rapidly with the gas pedal. My old work truck had one and temps could jump 40-50* in a matter of seconds, looked more like a boost gauge. Converter will also warm up on decel if engine is spinning slower than drive train on coast.

Just something to consider since the factory measures it's temps from same spot. 

I'm mostly relying on my experience with Mack, which is also monitored at the pan.  I figure it this way - there's nothing I can do about the outlet temps besides a good converter - it's just gonna git hotter 'n blazes, so whatever happens coming out of the tranny is something I cannot avoid.  Because of that I tend to be more concerned about the 'overall' temperature of the tranny, and I believe that is best monitored from the pan.  

Engine temps are similar - having a gauge at the outlet of the radiator would seem to be an less useful temperature measurement conpared to the back of the block where the average temperature hovers.  If the average temp goes up, then I get more concerned that something's wrong.

That's just how I rationalize having a pan gauge 

I think it is just being able to spot those heat trends faster, instead of having a slow average. Compounding on your analogy, it is more like measuring temps at the cylinder heads, instead of inside the reservoir.

By time you see the reservoir get hot enough to alarm you, everything else is scorching.

I have a pan fitting, but think I'll put the 1/8npt plug back in and see if I can fit the autometer sender up into the stock cooler line sender hole. If not, I'll probably add a tee.

Is there a build page or a link to the mil. spec crewcab that your inspired by on here. I fell in love the minute I saw it and have to see more. 

a-yep  - http://ramchargercentral.com/mopar-trucks/pineland-bob's-dodge-crew-(more-pics)(updated-09-04-09)/

Hard not to dig that rig eh?

I just picked mine up couple weeks ago. Kinda looking for ideas also. 1972 Power Wagon Crew 318/727/205 44/60  for now.

well if yer looking for ideas, yer on the right web site.  This place is where I got a bunch of mine

Had a great trail run in Red yesterday - went to the top of Red Cone pass, just south of Keystone Colorado.  Beautiful scenery - breathtaking views.

I have decided to use the 47RH in Bud, along with Red's original 6BT.  I think a 300 hp Cummins and a lock-up tranny aught to keep Bud easily humming along, and I'd be able to keep Red intact - in other words I won't have to hack Red apart to build Bud, and I like the hell outta that idea.  Then again, now that I have Oxx, I think it may be time to look for a new home for good ole Red.  The dude run's too good to part out, and if I can keep Oxx and Red intact (Mack too for that matter) and still be able to build Bud...well that's almost too logical to ignore.

Really leaning towards keeping Oxx a good ole 318, and when time comes I'll rebuild the little engine and add the goodies from Hughes and get a bit more power and mileage from it.  Simple...and I'm starting to really like 'simple'.

Something else to keep in mind on measuring the oil temp and comparing it to measuring water temps: water turns to steam and absorbs the heat away from the metal, which is good (mostly, we want the heat out of the metal, but we don't want to boil over). But oil heats up and loses lubricity, which is very bad. It may not be a bad idea to have two gauges either. Just something to think about.

well bring on the suck.  I'm reading some reviews about the Detroit Turetrac differentials, and I'm seeing two recurring themes - "can't handle TONS of torque, and aren't 'intended' for over 33" tires".  

I was intending to use a Detroit electrac front locker (basically a fully-lockable truetrac), and....I'm gonna have lots of torque and I'll never be under a 36" tire.  

This truck will see real snow duty which is why I want a limited slip, but it looks like I need to find one that is stronger than an truetrac.  I'm looking at an Eaton HD Suretrac.

So...I have to ask the congregation once again for your insight and advise about a truetrac's strength?  

Thx,
- Sam

i'm looking at these. for your app i'd call their tech line though for their opinion.

http://www.ringpinion.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProdID=3646

i'm looking at an ox locker for my D60F.  they now feature a robust mechanical linkage for operation.
no air or electric dependency.  Plus it's either truly locked or truly open.

Truetrac is not what you want for your application.  For the power and tire size you will have, my experience is an Ox, ARB or Detroit.  Niether of which satisfies the need for a limited slip.  I have no experience with an Ected limited slip/locker so I can not judge.

I do a lot of snow wheeling too and have always had good luck with front/rear detroits.  I like to keep things simple and there are no levers, air lines or cables to fuss with on a detroit.

Kevin

i agree it's hard to beat a detroit locker but on the front it's hard to take a hard turn while locked you just plow and that's where you're going to stress some stuff.  that's why i'm looking at the ox for the front.  you can lock it for the nasty part of an obstacle and disengage it to negotiate a tight line on the fly.  i always prefer mechanical activation over power dependancy (air or electric).  i think ARB has a pretty impeccable reputation but facilitating operation requires a system approach including compressor and/or resevoir and lines which are more susceptible to trail damage than a beefier sheathed mechanical cable.  plus nothing beats the open option on the street.

With all of the lockers you have tried and not had great luck with I would spend the cash and just get the ARB Sam. It is normally an open diff so snow, rain etc driving is normal operation.

Then you flick a switch and have a bulletproof full locked trail rig. ARB's seem like money and time well spent on this. 

yap that's likely how I'll go.  I'll have a big on board air system so...

   ....so today was pretty fun (this is a slight tangent from Bud but it's not really an 'open' item...)

One of the things I've been wanting to do for a long time now is have an engine display line, like what is inside the good Mopar parts departments.  They don't have to be running, but more like just something to look at and aid in creating discussions and cross-talk.  I've been wanting to do this for a while and eventually I'll have several engines mocked up in my shop.  I want to do the main 'muscle car' engines Mopar offered along the way like the big blocks and small blocks, and a couple others that might be unique or unusual....and along those lines what Mopar engine display would be complete without a....Mitsubishi diesel? .  I found this a while ago and I've been wanting to pick it up, and today me and dad got it done.

As best I understand, Dodge's first real volley into the diesel world....wasn't a Cummins...it was a Mistubishi diesel, and I think they were only offered in 1978 - that's seventy-eight.  I found this in the engine bay of a 78 Dodge pickup, and while it isn't really anything major it is, for me, a very interesting and fascinating piece of Mopar Dodge truck history.  My goal is to clean it up and hang it on an engine stand right next to my mock Cummins 6BT.  I just think this thing is very interesting - here's some pics:

The truck is a late 77 or early 78 even though the grill is a transplant...


...and this is what was inside the engine bay, bolted up to a good ole 727 - still had oil and some antifreeze in it




came out easy


...and to boot, in the bed was...another Mitsubishi diesel engine...with a few less parts on it...




loaded 'em both in the truck easy enough




...but then had to get 'em out, and Harbor Freight was on the way home, and soon as we walked in for some supplies...I saw the answer to some recent 'lifting' question I'd been pondering...

This is maybe the smartest decision I've ever made purchasing shop equipment - worth every dime


It worked great - absolutely great, and we used the atv trailer to transport the engines over to storage until I'm ready to take both engines and make one very good mockup, and display in on a stand.

- Sam

Looks AWESOME Sam. Are you going to put a lift into your shop?
Jim

cool.

Cr.... Some people have all the luck 
I'd love to have one of those in my truck...

   ...you mean the little Mistu diesel?  It's not a power house, nor is it turbocharged, nor can parts be found for it - it's not worth 'using' as a driveline engine...I picked it up just because I thought it was kewl .  I have no intent on doing anything with it except bolting it to a stand and displaying it with the rest of my engine collection - a work in progress per se.

cool - me and dad picked up multiple wiring harness(es) the other day; one complete harness (dash, engine bay, chassis) from an '86 Ram plus a dash harness from a '77, all in good shape and all of which will be used to make Bud's "circa '78" modified harness (essentially a complete '86 harness, but modified under the dash to 'look' and 'work' like a 78 harness, fuse block, etc).  The mid '80s trucks are plentiful and in pretty good condition, plus I can most easily incorporate my favorite 'luxury' item - intermittent wipers .

Also think I secured a front end.  Turns out the electrac locker I picked up is really for a rear D60 - who knew; even my diff guy didn't know - but he's hooking me up by swapping me the locker back for some labor, and we'll work out the upgrades to 35-spline outers and hubs and an ARB, bu-yahh .

Also found out Moser Engineering makes all of their axles on a custom order basis, so my concern about getting replacement axles for my dually rear 70 is moot.  

Progress.  While I'm busting hump on Paddy's Wagon, progress on Bud continues.  I talked to PSC at length about my needs (ram-assist + hydroboost + 38" tires + 6bt Cummins + 7500 lb truck...) and we've got a healthy system designed that'll get 'r done.  I'll be doing a big remote reservoir with filter, big cooler, big 1.75"x8" ram, and they're custom building the pump to work directly with the 6BT....but I think I have another idea for a pump, something to do with an air compressor .  

Next summer should be a blast .

I thought the Perkins diesels were the first diesels in a Dodge truck?
Also found this site but don't know the accuracy of it as they say that the Cummins first was used in '65 http://www.ehow.com/about_5118331_dodge-diesels.html
When I get home over the weekend, I'll try and remember to look in my reference books for any Dodge diesel info.

certainly could be - I've no doubts.  It is remarkable how similar the 6bt Cummins is to this little Mistubishi

I guess that's an excuse to collect more engines 

The Mitsu is rare... that's what makes it so interesting to me.
Using such rare stuff has some glory to it.

There's parts for the 6DR5 (that's its name) around, making it usable i think:
http://www.engnetglobal.com/images/enhanced/productdetail/PAR017_mitsubishi.aspx
(search for 6DR5)


Would you sell me both? 

Hey man... Don't rag on small displacement, non turbo diesels. My fiancée's first car was a '77 M-B 240D. That thing was a tank! But aside from throwing a belt once (and one time she let it run out of fuel) the thing ran like a top. And here's the kicker: the odometer on it had stopped turning at 359,000. Before she bought it.

So that's my defense of small diesels.

  - not raggin' at all - I just think these little diesels are cool


...so as I'm searching for X-mas presents for Bud I came across these goodies for a Dana 60 -

https://www.4wdfactory.com/store/products.php?product=GM%7B47%7DDodge-Dana-60-35-Spline-Upgrade-Kit-w%7B47%7D-Locking-Hubs

I've got a line on a dually front 60 and I'll need to convert to srw, and one of the decisions I need to make is which vintage of outer hub assembly should I aim for - Dodge or Chevy?  I'm leaning towards Chevy units for two reasons; 1st is brakes - I think the Chevy rotors are thicker than Dodge and I'm betting calipers are easier to find, and second is the Chevy units have 9/16 lugs verse the 1/2 Dodge lugs. 

Anyone have insight into 4wd Factory and/or feedback on the hardware?  The 35-spline conversion is a given - question is who best to get the kit from??

Follow-on question is I'm also looking at these hubs, same mfg -

https://www.4wdfactory.com/store/products.php?product=GM%7B47%7DDodge-Dana-60-Wheel-Hubs-with-Rotors-%28PAIR%29

Prices looks pretty good considering what is included.  Assuming new rotors are about $100 each, plus the 16 studs to convert to 9/16, I'm in for about $240 as-is, thus making the Chevy hubs about $260 for the pair - that ain't bad for hubs period, and with the long-term benefits that is not a bad way to go.

Any advice regarding this company, the 35-spline conversion kit, and the GM hubs is greatly appreciated.

- Sam

Sam I bought all my 35 spline stuff through Lanty "Elwein" who's a member on here. I think the Dodge & chevy hubs are the same in the 92-93 years. Dodge went to the Thicker rotors in the 92.5 year. I had to measure mine when I was building the D60 for the Gold RC. The chevy parts are cheaper in price tho .
Jim

That's "Elwenil" if i'm not mistaken  


@Sam:
If you're ever thinking of getting rid of them: Remember me!

Roger that.  Lanty, incomming! 


Will do!

Wait a dually front 60? Does that mean a front Dana 60 with four wheels or a Dana 60 from the front of a dually?

...it's just a standard dually front axle...?, with 2 wheels .  

Found one this afternoon on CL, from an 89 1-ton dually Ram (non-diesel) w/ 4.56's - 100% complete.  Seller (his name is Rick) also had a set of new factory Chevy hub/rotor assemblies that are designed for internal hubs.  He gave me a real good deal on all three, and since I wanted to upgrade the hubs anyway, bonus.  And he mentioned he has 'more' stuff for sale for those in the Denver area who are looking.  

So now Bud's front end is 'ready' for the rebuild, 35-spline upgrade, and an ARB.  That'll be a while yet, but at least I've got the big stuff ready for mock-up.  Thanks everyone (especially Lanty) for all the good advice on the 35-spline gig .

The Chevy rotors are the thickest I've seen on a truck - way more bigger than stock Dodge.  Toss on a set of new Chevy calipers and with the hydroboost Bud aught to have some major brakes.  I'm also planning to do an exhaust brake.  With that Bud should coast down a steep hill about as fast as it'll idle up it .

Picked up a 4'x8' sheet of 3/16" plate steel that I'm going to use to box the frame.  I got a screaming deal on the full sheet and that made lots more sense than trying to do it with scraps.

...progress....

Front axle checks out good, should be just the ticket



to convert from dually (dual rear wheel - 'DRW') to non-dually (single rear wheel - 'SRW') I need to remove the dually outter hub/rotor assembly, and replace with a non-dually hub assy, and in this pic is the Chevy hub/rotor assy I'll be using, brand new in a box from Chevy -



These Chevy rotors are the thickest I've ever seen.  The Dodge axle won't care what brand of hub is bolted to it - both Chevy and Dodge swap.  What's nice is the Chevy hub uses the same caliper bracket as the Dodge (same pn#), but I'll need the Chevy calipers because they're about 1/2" wider than the Dodge calipers to make up for the super thick Chevy rotors - should make for great stopping power for this big heavy rig



compared to the Dodge rotors, and even though the Dodge ones are used there's about 1/4" difference between the two - pretty big difference



...and after boxing the frame with this 3/16" steel...the frame should be good to go -

Your parts pile is getting bigger and bigger! When are they all coming together? Do you have a target date?

Now you're running a 6bt in Bud right? Now that you sold Red where are you getting it from? Or are you putting Reds old 6bt in Bud?

I'm telling you man, flow chart!

no joke!  I'm building my very own all-Dodge junk yard .  I'll actually 'start' the build once Paddy's Wagon is out of the shop - that is my priority right now, and that dude is within a month of firing back up and shortly after it should be rolling on its own.  We're gettin' reaaaal antsy to see how Pat's 408 does in this little rig .

Hoping to start wrenchin' and weldin' on Bud for real sometime mid-Sept - maybe that'll be my b-day present to myself . 

And ya Bud is getting Red's old 6bt, and the 47rh, doubler, D60f D70r, 4.56's and 38's.  Should be a really fun truck

cool.  Been pondering the interior, and while it is going to be very basic it is also going to be really fun.  I want seats just like my Dad's '52 M-38 Jeep, which means high density foam covered in heavy-duty canvas treated with canvak weatherproofing (I love that smell..! ).  
Found a company that makes repro M-38 seats (http://www.surplusjeep.com/topscush.htm), but since my rig is going to eventually be Air Force Blue I don't think the standard OD green seats will look that great , so I'm going to have them make a pair of M-38 Jeep seats in Khaki tan .  Found a simple source (almost too simple, but it works) for heavy-duty khaki tan canvas material (17 oz khaki tan tarps http://www.wholesaletarp.net/canvastarps.aspx ), and Surplus Jeeps will make my seats from the material, and it's actually going to be fairly reasonable.  I ordered two 6x10 tarps (enough material for 4 seats), and my wife is gonna handle having the seats made (I asked her for a set of seats for either my B-day or Christmas or both - she asked for window tint in her car ).  
I'm also going to have some door panels and door handles made from the same material so the interior will at least match, and it should last just about forever.  
When I get the seats I'll get some canvak weatherproofing from Home Depot and treat the seats, then they'll be ready to mock up in the cab and bolt in place...and by Christmastime I'll be just about ready for that stage of the build.

So, Bud will have a great set of khaki tan Jeep seats that'll forever remind me of runnin' around with my Dad in his M-38.  Don't get much better 'n that.

 

 

That sounds AWESOME on the seats. It's also a nice tribute to some great menageries you had with your Dad. Hows Paddy's Wagon coming? I haven't seen any updates on his thread.
Jim

actually now that you mention it, Paddy Wagon is due for an update - stand by:

cool.  Lots of small stuff going on with Bud (behind the scenes) - 

In the mail I've got (what I think is) the proper khaki tan canvas (not the mustard yellow ) for the seats coming, got a new black Sheller repro M-38 Jeep steering wheel coming , got a section of an actual '52 M-38 steering column shaft coming (the top 5 inches of it, so I can fab up an adaptor to bolt it to a Borgeson column), and some major surgery planned for the front diff  - I think I've figured out how to 'adjust' the inner C's and 'modify' the p-side spring perch on the front D60 so I can rotate the pinion up and maintain good caster, and I talked with my local Drive Line Service on how to modify Nacho's 1-ton driveshafts so the front and rear can be 'interchangable' , and pretty soon I'll have the 'hardware' for my on-board air.


Ya know...we need a series of little emoticons doing car 'maintenance' - with a smiley face turning a wrench, spraying paint, chopping with a hacksaw, using a measuring tape....

Sam,
Are you doing the rotation on the inner "C"?  I use to make D44s for the front of the pre 72 CJ5s with the OEM width. so if you have any questions I can help ys.
Jim

Thanks Jim!
ya we're going to rotate the C's back - actually I'll need to rotate the pinion up, and that means rotating the C's back.  Won't know the final angle until the leafs are under the frame and the axle is under the leafs...so I got a while before it get's busy.  How the front leafs get mounted will be the most important part because that will dictate how I'll need to rework the diff. 

Part of my overall 'plan' is to have identical front and rear d-shafts.  The rear will be a 2-piece shaft, but having both front and rear interchangable give the obvious redundancy benefit.  The rear will have a short intermediate shaft supported with a carrier bearing with a CV-style output so the shaft can bolt up to it same as if it were coming out of the t-case. 

I'm reusing Nacho's shafts and both already had the 1-ton 1350 series double cardon joints coming from the t-case.  The front D60 will get an upgrade to a 1410 input yoke (to match the rear D70) and the front shaft will get the same 1410 upgrade to the slip yoke and u-joint.  The rear will get a longer tube to match the front.  Simple.

Because of my longer wheelbase, lift, and the expected suspension drop-a-bility, I'm rotating the pinion for both the front and rear diff's upward a bit, and the DC joints will allow me to aim the diffs nearly straight at the t-case.  Plus, doing this will give me more of the available slip yoke spline to use without (hopefully) having to upgrade to the long spline slip shafts.  Hopefully, under full drop (like if I 'wave' a front or rear wheel) I won't pull the d-shafts apart.

Nacho showed me how much angle I can get away with for rotating a pinion, and I'll likely do about the same to both ends.  The biggest 'unknown' part of the rotating the front is the p-side spring perch, and I've been talking with Ray about how best to do that and he has some great ways to make all that 'happy'.

So ultimately, if I pretzel a shaft I'll already have a 'spare' to get me home.  Fortunately the shafts I have (built by my local Drive Line Sevice for Nacho) are the same as what Hi Angle Driveline and the other great shops do only these guys are local.  And since I do have some wheelbase to take advantage of my shafts will actually be pretty decent length, which gives me a bit of an angle advantage coming out of the t-case.  When it's all done I'll have the limiting straps back under there to make sure the t-case (and tranny) don't crack in half trying to hold up the front or rear end.

 

The hardest thing will be the angle of the spring studs. The pad you can remachine to what ever angle you want but the spring studs will need to come 90 deg off of the milled spring pads. maybe a larger dia spring stud machined in at the right angle if there is enough material.
Jim