DAMM You Diesel Guys (Conversion ?)

[Bogie]

Alright I have finally commited to do this swap on my Crew (thanks Jamie) but I still have quite a few things to figure out orignally I planned to buy a 91-93 truck and swap everything over which would have been easy untill I started reading

So the new plan is to buy a 2nd gen Cummins 94-98 as I want the P7100 pump I do plan on making silly power (propane & nitrous) & I know I want a manual trans probally a 4500 but maby a 5600. What else is diffrent bellhousing ? I know the clutch can be had to work with both. Im still trying to figure out T/C's Shuld I use a 2WD or a 4WD trans Divorsed TC or not I was thinking on running a 203/205 doubler but I dont think you can mate a 203 to a 5600

Then I know I need a new core support for the Rad/Intercooler What about the brakes ? Vacume pump or Hydra Boost ? Gearing my Crew has 4.10's with 37's but I plann on 40's Exhaust will be stacks since Im gonna put a stepside bed on  .

Please advise

[RXT]

Alright I have finally commited to do this swap on my Crew (thanks Jamie) but I still have quite a few things to figure out orignally I planned to buy a 91-93 truck and swap everything over which would have been easy untill I started reading

So the new plan is to buy a 2nd gen Cummins 94-98 as I want the P7100 pump I do plan on making silly power (propane & nitrous).....

My suggestion, don't turn down even the VE pumps. Finding a good engine is very hard, and BTW I've been doing my own research and I'm discovering that there are ways to get a VE into the 500hp range. I'm shooting for 400hp, only because I'm afraid what will happen to my axles with massive (1000lb-ft+) torque and 44s. I wouldn't suggest propane. I'm learning that there have been reports of blown head gaskets while using propane on bombed engines (Something about the propane igniting before the diesel does, during the compression stroke)

...& I know I want a manual trans probally a 4500 but maby a 5600. What else is diffrent bellhousing ? I know the clutch can be had to work with both. Im still trying to figure out T/C's Shuld I use a 2WD or a 4WD trans Divorsed TC or not I was thinking on running a 203/205 doubler but I dont think you can mate a 203 to a 5600

There are a few custom adapters, that will allow you to mate a 203 to a 4500 or 5600, and this will allow for your doubler conversion, but then why would you need a doubler? A bombed Cummins will make 1000lb-ft of torque easy and at 1500 to 2300 rpms. You can easily run a 205, and your engine will still pull in high range where you'd have to use low range in a big block. In my truck I fully expect to run a mud pit using nothing but high range and still be able to spin the tires even in the thickest goo.

Then I know I need a new core support for the Rad/Intercooler What about the brakes ? Vacume pump or Hydra Boost ? Gearing my Crew has 4.10's with 37's but I plann on 40's Exhaust will be stacks since Im gonna put a stepside bed on  .

Please advise

You won't be able to use engine vaccume to operate the brakes, because diesels do not create enough vaccume. The Cummins usually come with their own vaccume pump, a hydroboost should also work.

Ed

[mrpeal]

ya i agree, like ed said you wont need low range, matter of fact i used low range on the last run we had and i bent up the front end because of it, i thought i just needed a bit more gear to climb a rock sam was climbing, well i pushed against the rock with the tire and wheel in low and idled up and the torque pushed enough to bend the tie rod assembly and snap off my redneck ram. lol

i still like the p7100 pumps best,  and they are easy to work on. i used the stock vacuum pump on the cummins to run my booster and all vac accessories, it is more than enough to do your powerbooster and then some, and the stock ps pump has plenty of power to run a hydraulic ram as well.

i used a divorced case mainly as i needed to get my front driveshaft longer, that also makes it nice if you ever work on the truck that you dont have to seperate anything to work on clutch and whatnot, just drop a driveshaft and pull it out, im about to move the cummins into another truck, this time ill take better pictures of it, and document a few of the wiring issues that might help make this easier for some to complete. it really isnt bad at all.

[Sam Simpson]

The only reason people blow head gaskets when using propane or nitrous is because they are using way too much.  Really propane should only be used if you are wanting to be more fuel efficient and get great mpg.  It is when people start tying to make more power with it and dump more propane in is when they start blowing head gaskets.

Instead of using propane and nitrous for power, there are many otherways to get power out of the cummins.

I like the 3rd gen motors, put in a 4" exhaust, full flow intake/filter setup and an edge comp and you are approaching 900 ftlbs of torque.  Add some injectors and you are over 1000lbs.

[Bogie]

I havent had any issues with finding a good 2nd gen engine between $1500-2000 for just a engine then about $1200 for a NV4500 unlesss I use the 5600 if I could use my 205 that would be nice .I would be using the propane for the milage boost the extra power is a bonus. Im gonna do other things (injectors,turbo housing,etc.) not just spray it.Do any of you guys know if the bellhousing is diffrent fron the 5 speed to the 6

I would like to use a 3rd gen Sam but the cost/wiring/time involved to put in in my crew is more than im intrested in right now.

I have been trying to get FSM's for 98 & 93 to ease the swap

Jamie I have saved most of the pics you have posted of you swap to ease this project.

[ChrisLib]

Another plus for the VE pumped motors is that the VE is capable of adjusting the fuel timing dynamically where (correct someone if I`m wrong) the P7100 pumps do not. Basically what that boils down to is better driveability,emissions and cold startup (?did I just say the "E" word??), thats one of the main reasons Cummins went to the VP44 pumps on the 24 valver`s. And don`t knock the power potential of a VE, 400hp is doable but a bit of a stretch but 300-350 is attainable AND easy on #2 alone, .e.g, injectors,intake&exhaust, and some pump tweaks and youll be needing some trans upgrades just to handle it (thats where I`m at now  ), if you REALLY want, 500 is possible with drugs(water/meth or N2O, I`d shy away from propane). In fact there is a guy on "another" diesel only board running right at about 500 on #2 alone with a VE pump.Have to remember that if your "only" making 300-350 your also making probably 700 lb. ft or MORE torque. I put the POD`s in and tweaked the pump last weekend and now the thing will blow right thru the converter...I have found the next weak link....sigh....... Before you buy anything we have to have another Hooter`s meet and I`ll take ya for a spin, you might be surprised, I know i was the first time I nailed it after the injectors and pump work . I never thought something that big could move like that, and it`s in the bottom half of the "bombed" scale, I would love to get a ride in something totally tweaked...must be scary,lol. Like RXT said, don`t turn down a good motor just because it`s a VE, IMHO .

[Bogie]

Its not that I have or would turn down any Cummins engines but from my research it is that the 2nd gen are the easiest to mod for more power short of chiping the 3rd gen's. So I started looking and tolk my JY contacts to keep a eye out for 94-98's the prices have been good & not much more than a first gen.

[RXT]

The only reason people blow head gaskets when using propane or nitrous is because they are using way too much.  Really propane should only be used if you are wanting to be more fuel efficient and get great mpg.  It is when people start tying to make more power with it and dump more propane in is when they start blowing head gaskets.

Instead of using propane and nitrous for power, there are many otherways to get power out of the cummins.

I like the 3rd gen motors, put in a 4" exhaust, full flow intake/filter setup and an edge comp and you are approaching 900 ftlbs of torque.  Add some injectors and you are over 1000lbs.

As I'm understanding it propane burns at a different rate than diesel. As such, it tends to ignite sooner. On a stock engine power can be increased with propane. As I'm learning, propane on a bombed engine can cause big troubles when you include pumping in huge volumes of air and fuel.

With alot of tuning you can reach 1500lb-ft of torque. Thats about what some of the small semi engines produce.

Ed

[Sam Simpson]

The main purpose of propane (for fuel efficiency) is to give a more complete burn of the diesel fuel.  I don't recall off hand, but I think something like 80% of the diesel is burned, the rest is not.  Running propane allows 100% complete burn, or very close to that.  So with the same amount of fuel you normally use, you are getting 20% or so more complete burn.

Now when the guys are dumping alot of propane in, and as you point out "bombed" guys also dumping more fuel, the combustion is too much for the head gaskets.

There are quite a few guys that run aftermarket injectors, modified fuel plates, intakes, etc and still run propane safely.  Just can't over use it, both stock or bombed.

[GunPilot]

Speaking of torque, remember Mohammad's truck?  Well, Mo didn't advertise it much, but he was sorta accident-prone.  Or at least found himself in predicaments.  Well, one time he was over at a buddy's house and they were doing somthing which required the hood open, Mo under the truck, and the buddy to start it and turn the wheel to readjust the steering angles.

Well, seems the buddy forgot it was in gear (2nd) on one of the startups and jumped out as he released the clutch.  The truck lurched forward, Mo shot out from underneath without harm, and the truck continued forward into the buddy's garage.  The open garage door cleaned the open hood off the truck as it went in, then the driverless truck, at idle, proceeded to push the buddy's mom's '57 Chevy out through the back wall of the garage, taking the washer and dryer with it out into the back yard.

The truck never did stall, but came to a halt inside the garage with its rear tires spinning on the concrete garage floor till Mo jumped in and killed it.

So, my guess would be no doubler required.

[Sam Simpson]

lol

[Bogie]

So, my guess would be no doubler required.

OK so I will put the doubler on Hold For Now

[ChrisLib]

Breaking news on BIG VE power, see here,
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showthread.php?s=&postid=581998#post581998

and here,
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122016

I told ya, BIG #`s are possible...just don`t ask ME how to get there...I don`t have a clue...YET

[pxt]

My suggestion, don't turn down even the VE pumps. Finding a good engine is very hard, and BTW I've been doing my own research and I'm discovering that there are ways to get a VE into the 500hp range. I'm shooting for 400hp, only because I'm afraid what will happen to my axles with massive (1000lb-ft+) torque and 44s. I wouldn't suggest propane. I'm learning that there have been reports of blown head gaskets while using propane on bombed engines (Something about the propane igniting before the diesel does, during the compression stroke)

There are a few custom adapters, that will allow you to mate a 203 to a 4500 or 5600, and this will allow for your doubler conversion, but then why would you need a doubler? A bombed Cummins will make 1000lb-ft of torque easy and at 1500 to 2300 rpms. You can easily run a 205, and your engine will still pull in high range where you'd have to use low range in a big block. In my truck I fully expect to run a mud pit using nothing but high range and still be able to spin the tires even in the thickest goo.

You won't be able to use engine vaccume to operate the brakes, because diesels do not create enough vaccume. The Cummins usually come with their own vaccume pump, a hydroboost should also work.

Ed

diesels dont make ANY vaccum, man.

[mrpeal]

sure they do, just attach a hose to the VACUUM pump that all of them are equipped with like rxt said above. 

[pxt]

sure they do, just attach a hose to the VACUUM pump that all of them are equipped with like rxt said above. 

i said diesels, smart-ass. a vacuum pump, last i checked, doesnt qualify as a diesel engine.

[cooper30]

i said diesels, smart-ass. a vacuum pump, last i checked, doesnt qualify as a diesel engine.

You need to be very cautious with the wording of your replies.

[Sam Simpson]

It is also not very smart to act like a jerk to a well respected member of this board, who btw is an admin.

He simply stated that vaccum is present by the vaccum pump.  You response is like saying a cummins doesn't make boost. 

[mrpeal]

my smart remark was mainly as he correct rxt as he had already clarified the fact the pump makes the vacuum, lol

damn rookies, 

[CollegeCharger]

Definitely don't knock the VE pump, we have a guy around here that has a first gen that got over 600 rwhp with no drugs.  I don't know what you, personally,  woudl use 600 hp for, but the swap would be alot easier if you stuck to the first gens and coudl find a complete truck and then jsut move everything over from one to the other.  Not to say that you don't need 600 hp, but that brings with it an insane amount of torque, and that's what breaks stuff. Especially if you're thinkin of a doubler. JMO, CC

[Bogie]

As it stands I would not turn down a first gen engine but im looking for a second just for the slight ease of making power. i have done lots of research & have come across a few fisrst gens making big power numbers. I do not think I will be needing the doubler

[CollegeCharger]

Not tryin to flame your idea at all, I hope to do exactly what you are thinkin about doing, just after pharmacy school, which blows.  Mopar to ya man, and I hope you succeed, can't wait to hear about it and see some pics. CC

[Mad Max]

My '93 CTD is a great rig (or was before it got wrecked  - but I'll rebuild it  -  It made more torque than the new 600's (630 at the tires on a dyno, 253 hp), and the only mods to the engine were POD injectors, an HX-35 turbo and a 16 cm collar, rotated the diaphram to full fuel, upped the timing a bit, and turned the starwheel all the way to the top.  Those VE pumps are awesome - just like tuning a carb, which is why I like 'em.  I like the simplicity of the 1st gens, and I especially like the classic body lines of the 1st gens.  So, it's the '93 for me - I'll keep rebuilding it until it gets crushed by a meteor....
- Max

[ChrisLib]

VE Pumps Rule, heck anyone can make big #`s by installing a plate or some type of box (no offense to any of you that have done so J/K), but for someone to crack 600 with a VE...on #2 alone is purty darned cool.