- 78 'Nacho' (...end of an era!...)

[Mad Max]

Well tonight was a good experience .  Drove the RC an hour and a half South to Pueblo for a big show down there (along with a 71 Road Runner, a 71 Challenger, a 70 6-pak Charger, and a 73 Sport Fury (a bunch of us in the local Mopar club are showing this weekend at the Pueblo State Fairgrounds  ).  Anyway, the drive down was not bad at all, meaning the highway manners of the truck were pretty dern'd good - and that was with the 3.55's.  Yeah it needs a little more gear...but not much.  The 35" Nitto A/Ts ride nice and smooth and with very little noise.  They're great in the snow and ice, and grip fantastic on slickrock of Moab.    Anything more than 4.10's would be too much gear for my liking.  So, I'm going to keep the 35's, swap out to 4.10's asap (as soon as practical  ), and enjoy it for a while.  Maybe, maybe I'll do the doubler.  The beastie rides good - I'm real happy with how it did on the highway.  If I read the gauges right we were cruising along at right about 65 mph doing around 2300 rpm - right on the edge of the power band but already starting up the torque curve.  A little more and it'll be perfect.  So, 4.10's it will be.

After a couple seasons of fun wheeling and enjoying driving the thing (and not working on it), maybe when it needs new rubber, I'll go bigger and badder, but for now I want to drive it and keep it up and rolling.  I do need to address the steering - still having 'issues' - It doesn't feel quite like I thought a ram-assisted set-up would feel, but I have no baseline so I'm not sure how it's supposed to feel.  It still has some hesitation in the system...have to troubleshoot that a bit still.  I want to convert to a serpentine system and up to a bigger and newer pwr-steering pump...maybe a similar one from my '93 Cummins.  Always something eh?!! 

- Sam

[Dodge 85 RC]

I'm not a big fan of the claws. I used to wheel with a guy that swore they were the greatest tire in the world, but I could go farther in the mud than him with my toyo open country AT's just because the claws like to dig while the AT's stayed on top.

I've been very happy with mine, always taken me where I wanted to go and back.
I have gotten out of many hairy situations, only because they like to dig.  To each his own I guess.

[wannago2moab]

I've been very happy with mine, always taken me where I wanted to go and back.
I have gotten out of many hairy situations, only because they like to dig.  To each his own I guess.

Yeah I agree with you.  I guess there's a tire for everyone! The more I think about it the more I realize the guys I was wheelin with didn't have much of a clue!

[Web Wheeler]

Yeah I agree with you.  I guess there's a tire for everyone! The more I think about it the more I realize the guys I was wheelin with didn't have much of a clue!

You have learned well young grasshopper. See what going beyond your limits does.

[Mad Max]

Man what a sweet show - some awesome cars there.  Truck cleaned up good - got most of Moab washed off'n it



I was very fortunate indeed to be parked between this...

'71 RoadRunner 440+6 4-spd


...and this...
'70 Hemi Challenger rag top 4-spd


Also there from our gang was a burnt orange '70 Charger R/T-SE 440+6, '71 Challenger R/T 383 Mag, '70 Challenger R/T and a '70 Challenger SE, and a '73 Sport Fury 498 stroker (cool)


The pwr steering pump issue still hasn't been resolved yet so I stuck a 'disclaimer' on it for now 


Trip down and back were mostly uneventful and the truck drove right down the highway.  Pretty satisfied overall but I still need to do some sorting out on the EFI and steering, and get it aligned.  Got the back hatch installed and need to r&r the lock latch, small stuff.  Truck is getting more and more done each week and running better and better.  Yaeee!
- S

[mopar1]

Looking good! I especially like the bandaid on the PS pump!

[Web Wheeler]

That thing looks killer inside.

[ChrisKD]

Hey MM i see you still didnt find a more permenant Fluid Resevoir for the Nacho, Why not try one of these babies.



It's the Power Steering/Plow Resevoir off a 1970's Sno-Commander/Sno Fiter.

Roughly a 1.5 Gallon capacity (just the Resevoir alone).  Works pretty good for me.  If you can find a Sno-Commander/Fiter in a junkyard just grab the Tank & Both Power Steering Pumps & The Lines.  The Lower P/S pump has a tank, Upper P/S Pump has no tank, just lines running from the Resevoir.

[wannago2moab]

You have learned well young grasshopper. See what going beyond your limits does.

lol I can hardly wait to show my wisdom on rusty nail this year.  Sam I love the disclaimer!

[NonTimeboMala]

I think thats a great explanation.

[jungle]

Sam,
Check this out four the power steering. I will use that setup when I do mine.


http://www.howeperformance.com/rockcrawling.html

[Mad Max]

........ok..........the verdict is in, and I've made a major decision.  I've been doing a lot of thinking...and I've decided to make two major changes to El Nacho.  First...I've decided to pull the 452 and swap in a 6BT Cummins.  I am less than satisfied with the power - actually the problem isn't the engine, it's too much weight combined with highway gears.  I like the highway gears - I don't want to sacrifice highway drivability to gain off-the-line response.  I don't want to re-gear the rig to make it feel quicker - that would be curing the wrong problem.  Second, I've had it with the air bags, so they're coming out and good ole' leafs are going in.  This is the route I should have gone with origianlly.

So why the changes?  Several reasons, but it mostly boils down to the fact that the air bags are not holding up their end of the bargain, literally.  Despite my best efforts they continue to lose pressure and sag, leaving the truck tilted, etc, and that needs to stop.  My best guess as to why they're sagging is because the trucks weight is too close to the bags' max weight capacity, and it's a battle I will never win....and I know the truck is not going to get any lighter.  I've had it with the air bags.  They may work great under something with 2/3 the weight, but I have to keep adjusting the psi to maintain ride height, and that is not how this truck was meant to be maintained. 

Secondly, I don't want to re-gear the RC to make up for the weight.  While it makes real good power, the 452 does not have the power I was hoping for...and (and this is the main decision-maker) I'm cursed/spoiled by the 300-hp 6BT Cummins currently under the hood of my '93 Cummins Ram tow truck.  The '93 is running the same wheel, tire, and gearset (35" tires and 3.55's) as the Nacho, and it runs effortlessly, weighs the same as the Nacho...and get's 20 mpg (bonus).  The Nacho moves around well enough but has no where near the effortless 'feel' of the Ram, and while I could re-gear the Nacho to 'feel' faster it'd be curing the wrong problem.  I want the truck to glide down the freeway at 75 mph all day long...and get decent mileage...and there is only one way to do that with a truck this big - stab in a Cummins. 
I would rather spend the $ on converting the driveline to burn #2 then pumping in the same $ making the big block have the same torque or changing gears, or both, or more.  For this heavy of a truck...not to mention the weight of the trailer we're building for it...and because it's not primarily a trail rig but rather a camping rig, the diesel is a no-brainer. 
Plus the 6BT will add another 400 lbs to the front end weight and that will be over the max capacity of the bags.  So, the bags come out and good 'ole leafs are going in. 

I really have no gripes because it was a fantastic learning experience and a lot of fun fabbing the suspension.  Thought about coils but I have decided on simple leafs.  I like leafs and there is a lot of great tech info out there to make them solid and offer great flex.

The truck is too picky...and I'm tired of it.  I'm spoiled with the '93, and that is the power I want in the Nacho...and there's only one wat to do that - install a 6BT  .  600 lbs of torque is hard to pass up.  Not sure when the conversion will start - we just put our home on the market.  We're looking for another home on property zoned for horses, so we have that going on.  It's always something! 

So, looking for a donor truck with a good engine and tranny - one will come along sooner or later.  I won't piece one together from several independent sources - it's a full doner or nothing.

- M2

[Warlock440]

Oh boy! Nacho part deux!  I can't wait.

[wannago2moab]

OH NO!!! That means I'm going to be addicted to another 30 pages of your build! My wife's gona kill me!

[mopar1]

I am speechless! I could see swapping out the air bags for coil springs but wow. Maybe you could just try a set to see how they would do?
Diesel is a good call though.

[mopars 4 life]

ok, the verdict is in.  After a lot of thought...I I have decided on simple leafs.  I like leafs and there is a lot of great tech info out there to make them solid and offer great flex.
- M2

Yeah I like them to..call me old school but I like simple myself as well.
Uhhhh, good luck,again!
Brian

[IntenseImages]

to bad you werent closer sam. while at the junkyard today getting parts for the chebby i noticed in the shop that they had a 6bt setting on pallets just waiting for someone to buy it

cant wait to see the new build start.

eric

[NonTimeboMala]

Nice Sam so does this mean we will have a smokde screen to follow at Moab?

[aspoonhour]

WHAT!!!! A CTD in a Ramcharger?  Proposterous!!!! You outta you Mind, man! It'll never fit!!! 

PM'd ya!!

Andrew

[Rags80]

Keep the chassis and suspension as is and store it, then buy a new frame to swap the body onto..  might be easier / and alot less time involved....

then maybe look into coil overs for the chassis you'll still have....

[ramitupurs84]

I follow this like everyone else...I was big eyed on the drastic changes but I think the switch it is a good idea.

[Raminator]

Well this is news.  Definitely man bites dog, for sure.  I have to agree with ya Sam.  As soon as I stuffed my built-to-the-hilt engine in my RC, I found a running Dodge Ram CTD for about the third of the price of my engine.  I've been kind of kicking myself for it ever since.  I'll eventually go the 6BT route, but not for a while.  But with you going there, I have a good opportunity to learn from you.  Your build-up has been a big inspiration for my own RC.

So you keep posting and I'll keep reading, and one of these days, I'll get around to putting all that inspiration and knowledge to work!

[tv_larsen]

Sweet, an oil burner!

You know, you can run leaf springs and keep the 4-link (if you have room).  You would have to run shackles are both ends of the leaf springs.  With regular leaf spring setups you have to deal with the issue of axle wrap.  The 4-link is much better dealing with axle wrap.

I know you considered coils, but there is an even better solution...

[MA$TER BLING!]

Too bad about the airbags, but the CTD sounds like a winner to me. I know what you mean about being spoiled by them.

[hiltman]

I figured you'd go through Nacho withdrawals before too long. Cut up some of that bracketry and pass it out to the Moabians in October. If you find a 6BT and/or 518 down this way and don't need it until October, I'll haul it out to you. I'll put my feelers out as well (I may know of a local 518)... But somehow, I get the feeling you will be wheeling Nacho II by then. Keep us posted!

[Mad Max]

OH NO!!! That means I'm going to be addicted to another 30 pages of your build! My wife's gona kill me!

yeah...mine too   

Nice Sam so does this mean we will have a smokde screen to follow at Moab?

ha HAA  - naww, I'm thinking I'll keep the big fuel tuned down a bit - maybe even stock sticks and just a tuned up pump - no custom fuel pin, etc, but I am thinking about a 12 cm collar, 14 for sure...and certainly a 3400 spring.  I really don't want it to smoke at all, so if I can keep the sticks in check it should be 'okay' to be behind 

WHAT!!!! A CTD in a Ramcharger?  Proposterous!!!! You outta you Mind, man! It'll never fit!!!

PM'd ya!!

Andrew

   driving your rig, Andy, has never left my mind.  Why they didn't do a CTD-powered RC from the factory I'll never know.  I definitely want to come up there soon and pick your brain bud, especially about your conversion, and about your suspension.  I want to install the long rear leafs and as long as reasonably possible front leafs.  I'll call ya tomorrow.

Thanks for all the props fellas.  I'm actually relieved in a way to be going back to 'normal' on the suspension.  I'm just going to pull the body back off and redo the frame stuff - shouldn't be to bad.  I'll do the rear flip and just set it all up for good drop articulation.  The steering will be the same as will the brakes.  It should pretty much be just bolt the bracketry back on and bolt in the leafs, weld on the spring perches, and slam it back down.  Getting the intercooler and all that to fit should be fun - probably have to cut a bunch out of the front core support - dunno - have to wait until it's all in there to find that out. 
Mean while I'm just going to drive it as is and enjoy it - it ain't broke, but it's not how I really want.  Not sure what I'll do with the engine and tranny.  They definitely aren't broke  - engine makes good power, just not the kind I'd hoped for.  Again, spoiled...but that's okay.  I'll most likely sell the 452 (with or without the EFI) to one of my musclecar bubbas - that 452 would be killer in a car  , and if the EFI doesn't go with the engine then it might make its way on top of the 446 in my '71 Demon, maybe.  Dunno - would like to sell the engine complete as is, but who knows.

Fortunately, the elecrical system won't be altered much - mainly removing some components and re-routing others - not too much change there.  Have to alter the dash too - have to add in the CTD message center and the boost and pyro gauges, and I'm not sure what I'll do with the tach...ahh shoot - too much to consider this late in the day (I got off shift a little bit ago and am still wired), but I think I'll call it a day.

Adios amigos    ZZZzzzzzz.....

- S

[BradicusX]

I really don't want it to smoke at all, so if I can keep the sticks in check it should be 'okay' to be behind 

 - S

I know where you might be able to pick up an authentic Mopar particulate filter if you really want to keep it from smoking. 

[wannago2moab]

I know where you might be able to pick up an authentic Mopar particulate filter if you really want to keep it from smoking. 

lol I bet I know who has that!

[cragdweller]

Did you weigh the truck?  I don't think you're giving the 440 a fair shake, unless the weight is way up into diesel 1 ton territory...  I have wheeled both engine types, and I always notice the lack of rpm range in the diesel offroad.  Frankly, the 440 is a better offroad plant because of the rpm flexibility IMO.  You could greatly improve the output of that 440 and it would still be great for allaround driving and offroading.  Also, factoring the cost of diesel (here in Oregon, its about $.50 higher per gallon than gas), the mileage improvement is not all that great with the diesel.  I don't know if the cost difference is as great over there...

[MA$TER BLING!]

When a 440 gets between 9 and 11 mpg (personal experience only here, not Sam's necessarily ) and a Cummins will probably get 18+ in the same truck, slight fuel cost difference still favors the Diesel.

[KThaxton]

Well, it seems that the two Sams I know would rather build 'em then drive'em. 

[Web Wheeler]

Well, it seems that the two Sams I know would rather build 'em then drive'em.

  don't poke the bear

[Raminator]

the mileage improvement is not all that great with the diesel.  I don't know if the cost difference is as great over there...

Hmm, my diesel gets a solid 16mpg in town and 20+ on the open road.  I'd be luck if my Ramcharger gets 8 in town and 10 on the freeway.  Even with the higher price of diesel, your expenditure in fuel is much less.  Seems my diesel handles pretty well offroad too.  Must be something wrong with your transmission.

[Mad Max]

I honestly thought the big block would do the job...and it does 'do the job'...but I hoped it would get the truck moving like the diesel does...and it doesn't.  After all, I had the 440, and the 3.55 geared D70, so I went with those two pieces for the RC build.  But, alas, in order for me to use the RC the way I want I'd rather install the diesel and get the big torque numbers so I don't have to change out the gears.  The RC is my camping rig, pulling the trailer with the quads, etc, and the 440 doesn't have the torque to do all that going up hill at this altitude.  A Cummins doesn't care what gears are in the axle...or how much weight is behind it...or how fast you want to go...or how tall the Rockies are...ever.  The mechanical injection, the low revs, the turbocharger...all big plus factors for a high-altitude low-speed off-road machine.  The added weight will only help out in the snow.  The tranny will have to be 'built' in order to handle the torque (a Cummins' achieles heel has always been the tranny...) - the magic ingredients for a 518 are a fresh rebuild, a good low-stall converter, a shift kit/valve body, good line pressure, and a great cooler.

The leaf springs are the easy part.  I originally decided to do the air bags in the RC as a test experiment for eventually doing air bags on my '93 CTD tow rig.  Well, now I know that I don't want air bags, and so now I'll put similar (if not the same) leaf springs on the RC as I would ont he diesel (longer length, decent lift), figure out the technicals, and in the end I'll have the formula for both rigs.

Tracy and I met up with Dave (ImitationDave) last night for dinner, and we talked about a bunch of stuff insluding t-cases.  Most likely I will do a doubler on the RC by mating up a 241 behind another t-case (what was it Dave, a 231?), and twin stick the RC.  I won't use the 205.  That plus a low rev diesel and the RC should have no problem at all crawling, and the overdrive and 3.55 gear will give me an easy 75 mph...and the extended length leaf springs will give me a good ride, and that should do it.

Too bad too - the 452 is a great engine - makes real good power, just not the kind I am accustomed to with the Cummins.  It is reaaaal hard to argue with 300 hp and 600 tq at the tires at this altitude.  Although I most likely won't bomb the RC's diesel like I have the '93s, but I'm sure I'll do an HX-35 turbo/14cm collar (maybe a 12), ATS manifold, decent injectors, and a 4" exhaust.  Nice part is I can reroute the intake straight to the snorkle, and the single exhaust will just be enlarged to 4". 

- S

[NonTimeboMala]

Yep that was it. 241/231 doubler. Keep an eye on Aarons(wannagoback2moab) thread he has the doubler ordered.

[Raminator]

What's this?  A 241/231 doubler?  So all I need to do is buy a 231 and a kit instead of two other t-cases?  Please elaborate.

[BenDiesel]

it seems your kind of dead set on the 6bt. but have you though about a 4bt. weighs about as much as your 440. and has enough power to move one of the frito lay bricks(van) down the road and they get 15+ mpg. plus there is lots of room for improvement. herd some guys getting 250 hp on stock internals. plus its 2 cyl shorter so there is more room to play with.

[BigRam]

Ya know Sam-this just sucks royally!! I finally just caught up on the last 30 someodd pages of the Nacho build and now you're going to start over!!??? Wish you'd figure out what the hell you're doing!! ... Just kidding there boss. Hope this next configuration works a bit better for ya and gives ya less headaches. While I like the airbag setup that ya had in there I can see how the frustration of constantly adjusting bag pressures would ruffle the feathers. I can't wait to see all of the new parts once everything starts. I've said before and I'll say it again that I look forward to your build and Spoons everytime I log into this site. It's almost like Christmas ya know! Keep the presents coming!!!

[Raminator]

it seems your kind of dead set on the 6bt. but have you though about a 4bt. weighs about as much as your 440. and has enough power to move one of the frito lay bricks(van) down the road and they get 15+ mpg. plus there is lots of room for improvement. herd some guys getting 250 hp on stock internals. plus its 2 cyl shorter so there is more room to play with.

But why go 4 when you can readily, easily, and cheaply go 6?  And why are you only getting 15 mpg out of a 4bt?

[BenDiesel]

But why go 4 when you can readily, easily, and cheaply go 6?  And why are you only getting 15 mpg out of a 4bt?

well for one they are in step vans. and they get between 15 and 20 from what i herd. and step vans have the airodinamic fo a brick fyi. also herd some people geting 25+ with them in their vehic but some say 19 depending on the setup

[Mad Max]

it seems your kind of dead set on the 6bt. but have you though about a 4bt?

Definitely thought about it, and after seeing Andy's progress I know it'd be a snap.  But 'Nators thinking the same way as me - the 6BT is literally more for less.  But, that comes with a hefty weight tag too, and for me that's even better.  I want this rig to be heavy.  But also, I'm very familiar with the 6BTs and I'll take the extra power output all day long  .

The thing I've been wrastling with is the leaf springs.  I want to install a set 'replacement' Skyjackers or Superlifts on the front, probably a 4" lift, but on the rear I want to go with a set of '03 Ram 1/2 ton leaf packs, 5" lift and 13" extra length, and locate the brackets to match.

Lemme ask y'all something:  In my book, suspension 'compression' is a bit less important for articulation than 'drop' is, correct?  In other words, how much a spring compresses up in the wheel well isn't as big a factor as how much the axle has potential to drop?  At least in my mind I am more concerned about whether the spring and bracket configuration will allow the axle to drop a lot, not so much that it'll let the axle jam up inside the wheel well.  If you have very good drop then you'll still have good contact pattern, and while the spring will of course compress I figure the spring needs to be set up so that it can drop a lot.
To that end, I figure (on the rear spring for example) a shackle flip lends to good lift without having to get a huge arch in the spring.  So, if the spring is nice and long, and has a decent arch, say a "2-inch lift", and the mounting brackets are located lower on the frame than stock, you'll get a nice lift without a big arch in the spring.  Then add in a long, very heavy duty shackle, and that same spring should have good articulation potential, up or down, right? 
Would it also be reasonable to assume a longer spring will have more potential to articulate?

In other words, an installed 65" rear spring, that has 2" of arch with weight on it, with an 8" HD shackle, should articulate better than a 52" rear spring with the same arch and shackle??? 
 
I'm not sure I'm explaining my thoughts very well, but in the end I'm leaning towards less spring arch and good shackles, with the mounts located lower on the frame, giving a nice lift, verses doing the same thing with arched springs at stock mounting locations.  Does that jibe?

All of this is just some theory I'm working on, and in the end I'll figure out which springs will work the best, order 'em, and locate the mounts to match.  I'm trying to avoid having a set of custom springs made for the truck if I can order a set off the shelf somewhere.

- M2

[Web Wheeler]

Why not go leafs front and coil rear?

[Mad Max]

Why not go leafs front and coil rear?

...'cause dude...I just don't wanna screw with it  .  Leafs are simple...and I'm ready for some 'simple'.  Plus...I don't wanna pull an IDave on the trail and hear my suspension go 'boing, boing, boing' down the hill  .  He assures me that the bailing wire'll keep his coils in check from now on

[Raminator]

well for one they are in step vans. and they get between 15 and 20 from what i herd. and step vans have the airodinamic fo a brick fyi. also herd some people geting 25+ with them in their vehic but some say 19 depending on the setup

I don't believe they are getting 25+ with two less cylinders, but if that's what they want to believe...  Probably that new math.  I'll take a 6BT any day, but that's just me.  If you're gonna go diesel, might as well go big.  I'd stuff an 8.3 in there if I could.

[NonTimeboMala]

...'cause dude...I just don't wanna screw with it  .  Leafs are simple...and I'm ready for some 'simple'.  Plus...I don't wanna pull an IDave on the trail and hear my suspension go 'boing, boing, boing' down the hill  .  He assures me that the bailing wire'll keep his coils in check from now on

That hurts man it really does.

[KThaxton]

I don't wanna pull an IDave on the trail and hear my suspension go 'boing, boing, boing' down the hill .

I guess I was lucky the first time it popped out, I was just down hill from him!

[NonTimeboMala]

I guess I was lucky the first time it popped out, I was just down hill from him!

And for that I am eternally greatful

[Mad Max]

Dave did you make it up to Denver?  I thought about trying to make it up there but got swamped down here.

Regarding leaf spring theory...does anyone have good intel on the pros/cons of thinner vs thicker leafs and more vs less leafs per pack with regards to weight capacity and articulation?

I've seen leaf packs with so many leafs i nthem that it's a wonder the leafs 'spring' at all.  I know they are designed to handle increased weight, but I don't want 1-ton springs.  My last power wagon (4-door long bed 4xdually) was very, very heavy and it had a set of skyjacker 1/2 ton leafs and it rode like a dream.  The trucks weight actually made use of the springs and it did not ride badly.  Going by the model id it should have had 1-ton springs, but that would have only cracked the frame sooner and made me get dentures.

For example, I'm going to need a set of springs that'll hold up the weight of the truck and also articulate well.  Holding the weight will be #1 priority.  I have a couple options for leafs, either off the shelf or made custom locally.  Both are about the same $.
One of the features I want is to have on all 4 leafs is a second main leaf that fits directly up under the main top leaf providing double the support through the spring eyes.  Here is an example:



I think this is called a military leaf style - with one additional main leaf (only without the eyes).  I want to go this route, and use thicker (and less of them) leafs (first example vs the second).  I also do not want a lot of arch, rather locate the leafs lower to get the lift I want and provide long strong shackles for good articulation.  Thoughts?

- S

[Web Wheeler]

For a smooth ride and if you want it to flex you will want more thin leaves than a few thick ones.
What you are describing is a spring with a millitary wrap.

[KThaxton]

I want this rig to be heavy. 

I think I can say with great confidence, that you are the only person in the motor sports world that seeks "heavy". Weight is the enemy!