Author Topic: welding up trim holes  (Read 2836 times)

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Offline treewtreehuns

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welding up trim holes
« on: July 10, 2015, 09:06:40 PM »
Could use a bit of advice with my first attempt at welding up some small 1/4" holes from trim i'm eliminating.
I have tig and mig. I tried mig today and i thought might be easier as one handed but with settings as recomended on my little hobart 1 heat, and 1 wire feed i'm just melting holes bigger and spatter a problem.

I am using straight argon as i had it in tig..at 20cubic ft/hr
and using flux core .030 wire
backing holes with a piece of copper held on with magnets
i have ground outside of holes clean but not inside some of these holes not able to grind inside
welder suggests .024 wire but i dont know if flux core or not
welder also suggests argon/co2 blend
is it likely to be my thicker wire, dirty holes, gas choice, flux wire or a combo of all?
i am planning to try the tig tomorrow.
if you can help, thanks for responding.
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1976 W300, 360, 435, 203, Dana 60/70 4:88 limited slip
1976 W300, 400, 435, 203, Dana 60/70 4:88

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    Offline mopar65pa

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #1 on: July 10, 2015, 10:32:13 PM »
    The splatter is coming from the flux wire. get it out of there and use straight wire with the gas.

    Turn the heat down a bit and pull the trigger in a short burst.
    Let it cool before you hit it again or you will warp the metal.

    Keep doing that until the hole is filled.

    When you grind it smooth do not over heat it or it can warp that way too.

    Good luck.  {cool}
    I'd rather push a DODGE than drive a chevy or a ford!!!!!!
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    Offline Elwenil

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #2 on: July 10, 2015, 11:05:13 PM »
    If the welder suggests to use shielding gas, then it's solid wire (GMAW), not flux-core (FCAW).  The flux is the shielding with the FCAW process.  As it melts it creates a shield of gasses around the weld and then a protective coating over the weld as it cools to protect it, just as in stick welding (SMAW).  The GMAW uses inert gas, the CO2/Argon mix, to shield the weld.  Keep in mind that if you swap to shielding gas, you will probably have to reverse the polarity of the welder.  If you are welding outside or in an area indoors that is drafty, do not use GMAW as wind can easily blow the shield gas away.  So work in a well ventilated area, but not one with a fan or constant breeze blowing through.  Flux-core is usually a little more forgiving in that respect, but not always.
    L.Clemons

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    Offline SuperBurban

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #3 on: July 10, 2015, 11:26:11 PM »
    I like using the bigger wire, fills the hole faster, I assume with less heat.  {noclue}

    I use a small round file, and clean the inside of the hole (Hole edges, not the inside of the panel). I use a sander to clean the outside of the panel, and then use a punch to slightly indent the hole. That way you are making a slight mushroom shaped weld plug. I don't spend more then a few seconds on each hole, and give it a quick wire brush before returning to a previous hole. Yes, back the hole up with copper before welding, saves a ton of time.

    Take an old chunk of metal, drill several holes and practice a few times first.
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    Offline treewtreehuns

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #4 on: July 11, 2015, 02:56:43 PM »
    Did some practice as suggested today and got a suitable result. However when I try to do the fenders which are attached to the vehicle, i only manage to create a mountain of weld which takes forever to grind and when i get it down where it should be, its paper thin and full of tiny holes. Welding sideways much harder.
    tried the plain wire with gas and that was a complete disaster. nothing but spatter and crap.
    Went back to the flux core and it spatters too but is tolerable.

    filing the sides of the hole clean is much better.tapping the hole down is also going to be helpful.
    I dont even know if this can be done properly with a wire feed welder and no gas.
    Checked my manuals troubleshooting guide and it doesnt help. Im at the slowest wire speed and the lowest amperage setting.

    I suffered while learning the tig and building the flatbed but this is just cracking my stones hard. I'm not paying anyone else to do a thing on this truck, except mount the tires. So tomorrow is another day.
    thanks for your help guys.
    1975 W300, 360, 435, 203, Dana 60/70 4:88
    1976 W300, 360, 435, 203, Dana 60/70 4:88 limited slip
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    Offline SuperBurban

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #5 on: July 11, 2015, 03:03:54 PM »
    Might try speeding up the wire. You want a continuous arc while you have the trigger on. I try to do 1/2 the hole, and move on to the others, then go back and get the other 1/2 of the holes. Trying to not get too much heat in one area. I use flux core also, a quick wire brushing before doing the second half of the holes, helps a lot.
    77 W200, 360/727/NP203/D44HD/D60 (Wifes Toy)
    77 M887- 318/727/NP203 D44HD/D60
    78/86 Ramcharger.  360/727/NP203 D44/9&1/4
    85/89/90 D150/W250 5.9TBI/435/241 D44HD/D60HD
    84 W350 360/727/241 D44HD/D60
    97 B3500 5.9MPFI/518 D60HD

    current projects:
    85 Country Coach RV, 5.9 Cummins/TH475,GV od,US gear Exhaust brake.
    77 clubcab long bed, 360/727/NP203/D44HD/D77U(to be integrated with the M887 above)

    Offline mopar65pa

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #6 on: July 11, 2015, 03:35:19 PM »
    Might try speeding up the wire. You want a continuous arc while you have the trigger on. I try to do 1/2 the hole, and move on to the others, then go back and get the other 1/2 of the holes. Trying to not get too much heat in one area. I use flux core also, a quick wire brushing before doing the second half of the holes, helps a lot.

    X2

    as you said go from the side and fill towards you, the filler material will build on it's self that way.  ;)
    I'd rather push a DODGE than drive a chevy or a ford!!!!!!
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    80 318/435 TD
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    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #7 on: July 11, 2015, 06:17:37 PM »
     do you stick weld ? do you gas weld ? my big brother was an auto bodyman concourse judging type carried away stuff . too much heat warps the shit outta sheetmetal , I weld stick , I watched him mig a/b he was TACKING in my definition  . try that . Quick on/off trigger , remember all it has to do is seal out h2o and stay put its not structural  Practice on an old fender first , remember what you warp you have to straighten . and yeah the flux core is for outdoors where wind blows the gas away on structural , a ball peen hammer dimple .... or a pick hammer a/b tool
    78 to 93 parts trucks
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    Offline Elwenil

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #8 on: July 11, 2015, 09:21:06 PM »
    Stitch welding is the term I hear used most often to describe making short welds to join sheetmetal without excessive heat.  That is usually the method I use, just pull the trigger and hold it steady to let a pool form and then let off so it can cool.  Basically the same as tacking something together, but you join the tacks together as you go.  Large panels usually get welded a bit here then a bit on the opposite corner, then down the panel, moving around constantly to allow the welds to cool and not build up a bunch of heat in one area.  Filling in holes will create a lot of heat if you weld it like you are welding up a plug in plate steel.

    As far as the spatter, X3 on checking your wire speed but also make sure your gas flow is correct.  Not enough flow or the gas getting blown away means no shield and the weld will look like the surface of the moon and spatter all over the place.
    L.Clemons

    1988 Ramcharger-Mil-Spec AW450 Project-318EFI-NP435 4 speed-NP205 Transfer Case-Front & Rear Dana 60s-Braden Wormdrive Front Winch
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    Offline treewtreehuns

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #9 on: July 13, 2015, 11:44:34 AM »
    still struggling.
    got two holes done in two days  and barely passable in my view.
    if i hold the wire there long enough to pool, then it just burns through the edge of the hole. if i keep it from burning through then i get this mountain of porous slag 3/8" high that takes forever to grind and is full of pinholes when i knock it down. then i have to weld those and instantly it burns through.
    the wire keeps stubbing into my work and wont hold a steady arc till i get the metal hot and thats when it burns through.
    i have tried all kinds of settings and go from bad to worse.
    the only thing close is 1-lowest amps and 1- slowest wire feed.

    i just cant seem to keep the arc there long enough to melt it completely without burning through.
    the edge of the holes is burning to friggin oblivion before i can build up any material
    if i strike a bead on bare metal without a hole in it, i can leave arc on long enough to melt a puddle that lays nice and flat when done.
    thanks for the help so far 
    1975 W300, 360, 435, 203, Dana 60/70 4:88
    1976 W300, 360, 435, 203, Dana 60/70 4:88 limited slip
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    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #10 on: July 13, 2015, 12:39:19 PM »
      1 - you are trying too hard to WELD up the holes 2- if you changed out the wire to plain ( NOT flux core ) there should be NO slag , its the flux that makes slag in/on a weld . so ... DON'T  try to hold an arc and weld it Do change the wire like you were advised to do  , make sure your gas ( argon) is working when you pull the trigger , stay indoors or in a spot with no wind . all you want to do is zzzzit stop then zzzzitt stop then zzzzitt  your tryin too hard  ;) relax , keep trying ... on a junk fender , you did remove the paint first correct ....? its a skill that ounce you perfect you will have for a lifetime , do you stick weld ? well what you are learning now is completely different , do not try to do it the same on fender holes ..... practice and time ,    don't give up and bondo the holes , it will fall out  welding a hole is tough to do thats why you use a mig and just 3 seconds on 3 seconds off till its goobered up , you'll get better in time ...  ;)
    78 to 93 parts trucks
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    Offline Elwenil

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #11 on: July 13, 2015, 02:32:20 PM »
    Yeah, if you are still getting any type of slag, you are either not getting gas flow, using the wrong wire or the metal is not clean and it;s burning away the paint, rust or other material.
    L.Clemons

    1988 Ramcharger-Mil-Spec AW450 Project-318EFI-NP435 4 speed-NP205 Transfer Case-Front & Rear Dana 60s-Braden Wormdrive Front Winch
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    Offline treewtreehuns

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #12 on: July 13, 2015, 03:17:23 PM »
    pics of todays mess

    im not giving up and thanks for helping
    i tried plain wire with argon and it was a complete DISASTER... nothing but spatter and popping, so i went back to flux core wire. it too sucks but is closer than the other.

    im not welding for long, if i get 1 second in before burn thorough or a nice pop and arc breaks... then i'm lucky.
    the weld, when i get it to stick just piles up in a dome shape and is hollow and opens back up when i grind it down. the holes done have taken hours, weld grind weld grind weld grind and with keeping cool by waiting is slow going. the copper behind is proving virtually useless.. ther is no weld going anywhere near it.
    1975 W300, 360, 435, 203, Dana 60/70 4:88
    1976 W300, 360, 435, 203, Dana 60/70 4:88 limited slip
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    Offline treewtreehuns

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #13 on: July 13, 2015, 03:18:50 PM »
    more
    1975 W300, 360, 435, 203, Dana 60/70 4:88
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    Offline Elwenil

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #14 on: July 13, 2015, 03:27:43 PM »
    You can only use the bizzit, bizzit, bizzit method with plain wire and shielding gas.  With flux core you are welding back over the slag from the last weld and contaminating the whole thing.  There is no reason to have spatter with a inert gas setup if it;s adjusted correctly.
    L.Clemons

    1988 Ramcharger-Mil-Spec AW450 Project-318EFI-NP435 4 speed-NP205 Transfer Case-Front & Rear Dana 60s-Braden Wormdrive Front Winch
    I do not like shortcuts.  Any job worth doing is worth doing right.

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    Offline mopar65pa

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #15 on: July 13, 2015, 04:22:00 PM »
    When you say the wire is "stubbing" into your work I take it the wire speed is too fast, cut the wire speed back to around 2-3 and try again.

    Using flux core you don't want to pool the metal on thin metal. keep a wire brush on a drill handy, hit the hole with a one thousand one count and let go. move to another hole and do the same.

    Go back and fourth between the 2 holes. If need be, use the wire brush on the drill to clean the "slag" before you hit it again.
    I'd rather push a DODGE than drive a chevy or a ford!!!!!!
    77 400/727 RC
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    Offline AdamW

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #16 on: July 16, 2015, 11:51:40 AM »
    Im learning a lot from this thread. I had the same problems but now i have some new information.
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    Offline treewtreehuns

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #17 on: July 16, 2015, 12:41:33 PM »
    yesterday i tried the tig.drilled my test holes in scrap and 1st shot i laid a smooth puddle over that hole that would require next to no grinding. Imagine my joy when i turned the scrap piece on its side and tried again. Complete failure, worse than anything ive tried so far with drips of metal running everywhere.

    then i tried the plain wire and gas again and cant even strike a bead. pure popcorn.
    today i tried back to flux wire and reverse polarity and no change. That first pull of the trigger either sends the wire into the work with no arc, or pops once before it starts to arc smoothly. This is the beginning of the mountains of shitty quality weld that has me grinding forever, and then pinholes to patch after that.

    I cant adjust wire feed any slower. ive tried all heat settings and anything above 1 will start arc slightly better but burn through the edge of the hole very quickly.

    I hear your advice on how long to hit it. im not doing it any longer, in fact shorter i'm sure.
    When i succeed in not melting the edge of the hole i'm left with a blob of weld thats like a ball. and all i can seem to do is attach another ball to that one and so on. its like the penetration is crap and a bunch of balls looks terrible and makes me the father of all grinding.

    my technique seems to be improving and the last couple of holes i did yesterday were passable

    im going to have at it again today. wasting a week on this already. I'm sick to death of this job and watching youtube tutorials and reading welding forums. >:(
    1975 W300, 360, 435, 203, Dana 60/70 4:88
    1976 W300, 360, 435, 203, Dana 60/70 4:88 limited slip
    1976 W300, 400, 435, 203, Dana 60/70 4:88

    Offline Elwenil

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #18 on: July 16, 2015, 01:58:48 PM »
    Are you reversing the polarity when swapping back and forth from FCAW to GMAW?  Most welders require that and the majority of them require you to do it manually by swapping the cables around.  MIG with shielding gas should produce very little spatter and is typically a nice, smooth zizzzzzzzzit sort of weld with very little popping and cracking.
    L.Clemons

    1988 Ramcharger-Mil-Spec AW450 Project-318EFI-NP435 4 speed-NP205 Transfer Case-Front & Rear Dana 60s-Braden Wormdrive Front Winch
    I do not like shortcuts.  Any job worth doing is worth doing right.

    Auribus Tenere Lupum

    Offline treewtreehuns

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #19 on: July 16, 2015, 03:07:25 PM »
    es El, i'm switching wires. No better either way.
    I know and love that zzzzt sound. cant get it.
    The arc is just unstable to start smoothes out if i hold it for a sec or 2. But by then i start burning through.
    I have great grounding.
    i try carefully to aim and steady before i press the trigger and it almost always pops at first and starts the blob business

    if it doesnt pop then wire stubs into work and either pushes my copper out or contacts steel and sticks to it.

    i can take this same setup to a piece of 1/4" plate and crank a decent bead all day long.

    I'm still at the its me stage but considering equipment problem.

    meanwhile I did 10 holes today.not the prettiest but will work. at least i'm not warping anything
    1975 W300, 360, 435, 203, Dana 60/70 4:88
    1976 W300, 360, 435, 203, Dana 60/70 4:88 limited slip
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    Offline dodge82273

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #20 on: July 16, 2015, 03:40:36 PM »
     yeah , wire , thin , no flux core , with argon on . just lay tac ontop of tac . maybe the wire's too heavy for tinwork ?
     sounds like it could be , I know if I took my bodyman brothers set the way he used it and tried to weld 1/4 it was way too cold .... what brand welder is this ? outta curiosity ?
    78 to 93 parts trucks
    91 w250 318 518 44/60 single 9 foot driveway plow locked
    87w150 44/corp727 kandy w/ ghost bats/summer
    86-D/W100 44/corp/318mag/carb/4500/aka shit box/winter
    93w150short/44/corp/360/le/mag "caddie"
    93w250LB51844/60posi 318"New Truck"

    Offline mopar65pa

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #21 on: July 16, 2015, 04:47:24 PM »
    If your gas and raw wire are making splatter there is a problem with your gas feed.  :-\
    I'd rather push a DODGE than drive a chevy or a ford!!!!!!
    77 400/727 RC
    79 360/727 RC
    80 318/435 TD
    93 CTD W250 club cab
    73 Charger SE 400/727 
    02 883R Harley
    85 Merc 300TD
    88 W250 5 speed plow truck
    Quote
    Ted Nugent called and he wants your shirt back! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFduVeNEWSA

    Offline treewtreehuns

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #22 on: July 16, 2015, 06:45:43 PM »
    getting gas. im using straight argon  thought that might be a problem as argon/co2 is recommended for steel.

    is a hobart 135 welder
    1975 W300, 360, 435, 203, Dana 60/70 4:88
    1976 W300, 360, 435, 203, Dana 60/70 4:88 limited slip
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    Offline Elwenil

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #23 on: July 16, 2015, 07:08:02 PM »
    100% argon is not normally used with steel welding as it can really screw up the look of the weld and undercutting can also be an issue.  For aluminum it's ok, but for MIG on steel, a 75/25 mix is usually the best way to go.
    L.Clemons

    1988 Ramcharger-Mil-Spec AW450 Project-318EFI-NP435 4 speed-NP205 Transfer Case-Front & Rear Dana 60s-Braden Wormdrive Front Winch
    I do not like shortcuts.  Any job worth doing is worth doing right.

    Auribus Tenere Lupum

    Offline mopar65pa

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #24 on: July 16, 2015, 07:32:58 PM »
    100% argon is not normally used with steel welding as it can really screw up the look of the weld and undercutting can also be an issue.  For aluminum it's ok, but for MIG on steel, a 75/25 mix is usually the best way to go.

    x2 on that.
    I'd rather push a DODGE than drive a chevy or a ford!!!!!!
    77 400/727 RC
    79 360/727 RC
    80 318/435 TD
    93 CTD W250 club cab
    73 Charger SE 400/727 
    02 883R Harley
    85 Merc 300TD
    88 W250 5 speed plow truck
    Quote
    Ted Nugent called and he wants your shirt back! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFduVeNEWSA

    Offline 88raminator

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #25 on: August 5, 2015, 08:06:57 PM »
    I have a Lincoln SP-170 T. I use a CO2/Argon mix. I've been told by a few people I could use straight CO2 and save some money, but I've never tried it, point of the matter is I don't weld enough to see a saving. I've tried flux core with so/so results, but prefer solid wire for sheet metal. I find if I look up the recommended settings for gauge size of metal, on the decal under the lid, it's in the ball park. I've made a lot more mistakes than pretty welds. My biggest problem is not walking away when it goes to shit, sometimes you need to walk away and regroup
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    Offline 84onstilts

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #26 on: September 7, 2015, 04:24:17 PM »
    I wish I had pics handy but ill do my best to explain.
    take a 12 inch piece of 1/2 inch copper pipe and hammer about 3 inches of the end flat and give it a slight curve stick that behind the hole to create a backing plate for the hole you are trying to fill make little tacks all the way around the whole till the hole is filled
    another option is cut out little 1/4 inch circle out of a piece of steel the same thickness as your fender and hold it in place from behind with a magnet rather than filling the hole with weld you have a piece of metal and you will be applying less heat because you wont be working over the are as long
    I hope this advice helps good luck 
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    Offline awptickes

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #27 on: December 25, 2015, 12:06:06 PM »
    Looks like too much current for that thin of sheet metal. Put simply, you're putting way too much heat into it.

    If you can get to the backside, try backing the hole with a copper or brass sheet, then filling the hole. Like what 84onstilts said.
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    Offline Mad Max

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #28 on: December 25, 2015, 01:00:59 PM »
    ...for what little it may be worth, when my welds start 'popping'...I turn up the wire speed, and I normally get better results.  Seems the popping is the wire melting too quickly and not actually laying a bead, or a 'drop' when filling in holes etc.  IOW, when I get a lot of popping...I turn up the wire speed, and that usually helps.
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    Offline hypothecary

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #29 on: December 28, 2015, 12:51:01 AM »
    Flux core on sheetmetal blows ass. Its an inherently hotter process that penetrates deeper. You want solid er70s6 wire for mig with 75/25. A Hobart 135 running on 120 volts is going to have weak arc starts no matter  what you do. If you have tig available then that's ALWAYS the way to go for precision/sheetmetal. IMO it's flat out ALWAYS the way to weld. Tig is hands down the best process bar none, if there's wind I block it. If you can tig the hole over in flat position, back off the amps a bit for out of position welding, use a staightend piece of mig wire and start at the top of the hole with tungsten and wire both pointed up. Do you have a foot remote or scatch start? With scratch start you can pull the ground clamp to break the arc and not loose shielding. If you blast a hole, back off amps and add wire faster (this cools the puddle). You don't have to pull the filler wire out of the puddle when you break the arc. Worst case you can jam a 1/16th wire into the puddle just as it appears then break the arc and cut the wire off, restrike the arc on the cut off wir bit and just as it melts into the sheet, repeat the process and work down over the hole. Working upward means fighting gravity and building more heat as you go.

    Edit: I don't mean to crap on diy-grade mig welders.  I have a 150 mig myself. When I have to use it (my argon is empty) I set the voltage depending on metal thickness and as I run a bead reach over and adjust wire feed until the machine runs smooth. For laying a series of tacks I'll set it at high to get a good initial arc start. Since you won't be establishing a puddle you want good tie in instantly and with a small mig that means middle to upper of voltage range and adjust wire speed after voltage.
    « Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 01:01:28 AM by hypothecary »
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    Offline moparpaint

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    Re: welding up trim holes
    « Reply #30 on: April 18, 2017, 09:21:47 PM »
    You need a minimum of 8% CO2 to support short arc transfer, 25% is most common, especially for thin gauge steel.

    Argon has what's known as "low thermal-heat-conductivity." It has a narrow weld bead and a deep central penetration. There's not enough heat to "wet out" the puddle to the outer edges. This results in severe undercut.

    100% Argon is used when MIG welding aluminum.