Author Topic: VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen  (Read 23348 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Mad Max

  • certified 'Imagineer'
  • Mopar Nut
  • ******
  • Posts: 9744
  • Gender: Male
  • USAF Retired
VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen
« on: November 20, 2008, 11:49:17 AM »
If you are a 1st gen Cummins owner (’89-’93) and your rig is stock you have probably noticed your rig is less than “fast”, and has a limited top end.  You can bury your foot and get up to the speed limit...but the truck just doesn’t seem to have any more legs.  If so, be reassured your good ole’ Dodge isn’t broken – it is de-tuned intentionally, from the factory.  There are several upgrades, but one of the least expensive tricks (less than $20 bucks!) is to install a ‘366’ spring inside the VE44 injection pump.  The net effect is more fuel across the rpm curve for a given throttle input.  It will not decrease your fuel mileage but rather give you more ‘pedal’ available for passing and, of course, acceleration, and, more top end rpm potential which in turn means higher cruising speeds.  Your Cummins only needs ‘x’ amount of fuel to maintain speed, and most reasonable fuel mods to the pump (including the 366 spring) will only affect mileage under acceleration or heavy load pulling, and that is all up to the driver.  IOW, your right foot will affect mileage more than anything else.

There are a few bits of voodoo required to make this work nice and smooth and I'll go into those.  Let me know if there are any questions.

First off, digging into a VE44 mechanical injection pump is very similar to working on a carburator - just nuts and bolts and a few small items that like to disappear.  I recommend reading through this whole writeup so you'll know where the voodoo is and can be prepared for it.  Bottom line - if it's written in red, it's extremely important.

Here is a less-than-great pic of what the pump looks like without the TPS (throttle position sensor - a feature on auto-equipped trucks) and also what a 5-speed rig looks like as-is



Remove the big bolt that secures the throttle levers (one atop the other).  Remove the bolt...but not the levers - there are little index marks on the lower lever that you'll need to match up with the slot on the tip of the throttle shaft.  Unfortunately mine would not come apart easily, so I had to yank it all off and guess at the index.  This causes a potential problem later on with having the throttle shaft off key with the governor which can cause the engine either to not restart...or to have 'runaway' - uncontrollable fuel.  The only way to stop runaway is to slap a piece of wood in front of the turbo and shut down the airflow.  This happened once to me and the wood worked percectly.  In this pic I also have the AFC cover off to inspect the fuel pin and diaphram...but that's another mod  ;) ).  Anyway, here's the bolt/lever assy:



The throttle shaft with all hardware removed -



...the hardware, left-to-right in order of disassembly -



You have to remove the AFC boost tube...



...and the 17mm bolt securing the return line -



There are 4 allen bolts holding the top of the pump to the bottom.  Remove those (the upper rear bolt can be impeeded by the idle screw - more later on how to alleviate that little problem)
With the top popped loose you'll lose some fuel (much like pulling off a Holley float bowl).  Lift the top half up a bit...and you'll be looking at this -



Note the arrows.  Lower arrow is the 'top hat' assembly with the governor spring hooked into it.  Right arrow is the end of the full fuel screw.  Upper is the throttle shaft arm with the governor spring attatched.  Use some needle nose pliers and unhook the spring at the throttle arm.  It takes a bit of patience - not brute force.

some detailed pics of the smaller stuff -





of note, the red pointer is aiming at the back side of the full fuel lever - this lever can't be moved out of the way during reassembly, which is why the fuel screw has to be removed to put the top back on.  The yellow pointer is the fuel shut-off solenoid, FYI.



Full fuel screw.  This has to be removed in order for the top to go back on.  Screw it back in 1 full turn 'in' past where it came out.  This will yield a nice power increase.



Before installing the 366 spring, do a little voodoo.  Remember the screw on the back side of the pump...the one in the way of getting that 4th allen bolt out (back side of the pump, behind the full-fuel screw)....yeah let's take care of that.  This screw is the idle screw.  Remove the idle screw - Note the end with the screwdriver slot.  This screw is a real beyotch to adjust from the back, so, install it from the front  :D - brilliant!  But, while it's out, hack off 1/2 inch or so - not the end with the slot, and thread it back in from the front to be where it was originally.  Hack off enough to clear the 4th allen bolt so when you reassemble the pump you can actually get the allen wrench in there {cool}.

Now, let's hook it all back together.  Getting the spring reattached is a bit tricky.  My solution is to carefully remove the throttle shaft from the top of the pump, attach the spring, re-insert the shaft, and then bolt it back on.  Lube the shaft with either fresh diesel fuel or any kind of good oil (I use my air gun oil mix - 1-part Mobil 1 10W30, 1-part Marvel Mystery Oil).



Inspect the big rubber seal in the top half of the pump - if it's cracked or looks real bad, replace it.  Same goes for the fuel screw and throttle shaft o-rings.  With the throttle shaft back in (spring attached), and full-fuel screw removed, pop the top back on, insert the 4 allen bolts, snug good and tight.  Screw the fuel screw back in - use a 6mm 1/4" shorty socket - works great.  Reinstall the 17mm return line and bolt. 

Now, here's more voodoo.  The throttle lever rotates counter-clockwise making just the slightest pull against the governor spring.  Rotate the shaft CC, and re-index your throttle lever hardware where it was when you removed it.  The little slot atop the throttle shaft will index to the marks on top of the lower throttle lever.  If it's off by just one index slot, the engine will either barely start/run (if at all) or it'll try to runaway (idle speed will shoot up and try to keep climbing).  No biggie, but if you're not sure of the index marks you'll want to have someone start the rig for you while you wait at the turbo inlet with a piece of clean wood to shut off the 'air' - this will kill the engine.  I know - it happened to me  :P

That's about it.  If you adjusted the full-fuel screw you may have to adjust the idle speed a bit to get it back down.  Adjusting the VE44 is very similar to adjusting a carb - one of the reasons I really like these old VE44's.

- Sam   
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 08:27:10 PM by Mad Max »
93 RC 'Cummins Sport' "Oxx"
93 Ram W350 CTD "Big Mack"
78 W-950 CTD Power Wagon "Nacho"
68 Charger R/T "Thor"
52 Willys M-38 "Poncho"

Offline MNYPIT

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 819
  • Gender: Male
Re: VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2008, 02:02:58 PM »
Great write up Sam! Thanks for the pictures too, gonna help me out big time when I get in to do mine!

Justin
WAS --->1990 W150, 318, A518, 241, D44, 9.25, JET chip,  4 Inch Skyjacker Lift, 33x12.5R15 , Eagle 589 rims

^^ Turned into---> 1990 W350, Cummins, A518/205 D60, D60, 35"x12.5"

Offline ToxicDoc

  • Lifetime Supporter
  • RCC Nut
  • *
  • Posts: 10251
  • Gender: Male
  • RCC Rules!
Re: VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2008, 03:03:58 PM »
This needs to be stickied to the top.  Can a moderator do that for us??
'85 W150 SB, 408 stroker, Magnum manifolds, Performer RPM, 670 Truck Avenger, HEI ignition, Auburn LSD 9.25 and '82 D44 (non-CAD) with 3.55/3.54,  NV4500/NP241

Offline dpuckett

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 36
  • RCC Rules!
Re: VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2008, 05:05:54 PM »
ANother note- these pumps arent getting any younger.  WHen doing the $20 spring install, it is a good idea to spend another $20 on a seal kit.  Granted, there are a lot of seals you wont use when doing R&R on the top, but it beats having to buy it later and redo it because the 15 year old seal decided to leak when you disturbed it.

Daniel

Offline AZ-Trailduster

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1640
  • Gender: Male
  • boogie boo!!
Re: VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2008, 10:47:35 PM »
you wouldn't happen to have a part number for the seal kit would ya?

-Nick
You know, these things wouldn't happen if you people would just wear your UltraLord Utility Belts.
-
1979 Plymouth Trailduster Sport
1978 Dodge D200\W350 Crew Cab - 6bt cummins swap
1990 Ramcharger LE - 6bt cummins swap

Offline sdstriper

  • RCC Rookie
  • **
  • Posts: 472
  • Gender: Male
Re: VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen
« Reply #5 on: December 3, 2008, 09:59:41 PM »
you wouldn't happen to have a part number for the seal kit would ya?

-Nick

Bosch p/n DGK121
89' D250 CTD, 727HD, D70/3.07, Tweaked VE, 4" exhaust, usual suspect gauges...

Offline aspoonhour

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 773
  • Gender: Male
  • RamchargerCentral.Com Rules!
Re: VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2009, 09:40:00 PM »
I figured I'd toss something into the mix here. When Sam was cordial enough to invite us all down to "the ranch" about a year ago, we did some 3k spring installs...One was Sam's '93 INTERCOOLED Cummins...one of the others was Red, our NON-INTERCOOLED Cummins...

Not sure if this is worth anything, but we noticed that my NON IC cummins wanted to "run away" with less full fuel screw than Sam's IC'd cummins...We had to back off the fuel on the NON IC pump...I think Sam got his turned in all the way and it didn't seem to want to run away. Not certain if this had much to do with the IC vs NON IC'd, but the differences in the pumps...

My point? The IC vs NON IC pumps ARE different in a few respects, so just be careful! We kept a solid board available to "choke" the turbo if things decided to "go"...I know it's been mentioned, but NEVER EVER NEVER EVER, try to choke a turbo with your(or anyone else's) hand!!!

Have fun! This is a GREAT mod!!! Sam wrote it up VERY nicely!

Andrew
2002 Dodge Ram 2500 - 24v Cummins, 5sp,2wd
2004 quad-cab 4x4 w/Hemi

Offline rob904x4

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 214
  • Gender: Male
Re: VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2010, 08:16:24 PM »
great write up sam he really knows what hes doing i just wanna add a couple of things seeing as i have done my first spring install there is one small step not talked about at the beginning of this process on my non i/c motor there is a hard line fuel feed tube that must be taken off in order to get the throttle parts off also you will have to take off the big black bracket that holds the throttle cable and mounts to your intake horn that all has to come off as well. also i would like to add for those intimidated by doing this there are some things that dont have to come apart like in Sam's picture where it says "hardware from left to right" the second 2  pieces dont have to come apart they can stay as one also the second 2 last pieces dont have to come apart either another thing i would like to add is you dont have to take out or move the full fuel screw i used a method i saw on another write up where you can pull it with a piece of string and then put the top back on and slide the string out that worked out well for me one other thing i would like to add is you dont have to remove the throttle shaft form the housing i had my son push the top hat in while i re connected the spring these just are some things i did different you may do it how ever you want
« Last Edit: September 7, 2010, 07:18:40 PM by rob904x4 »
p/s intercooler, hx35 turbo, denny t stag 2 fuel pin, pump turned in three turns ,gsk,three piece manifold,pensacola diesel injectores,2nd gen intake elbow,4" mandrel bent exhaust

Offline Mike4x4ne

  • The Traveler
  • RCC Rookie
  • **
  • Posts: 489
  • Gender: Male
  • Lets Play!!
Re: VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2011, 03:23:52 PM »
SO where do I get a 366 spring? I want to install one but unsure what to ask for.
92' 2wd 3/4 ton Cummins, 5sp getrag

If your anti gun please let me know so I dont defend you with mine while someone is pointing one at YOU!

Offline Mad Max

  • certified 'Imagineer'
  • Mopar Nut
  • ******
  • Posts: 9744
  • Gender: Male
  • USAF Retired
93 RC 'Cummins Sport' "Oxx"
93 Ram W350 CTD "Big Mack"
78 W-950 CTD Power Wagon "Nacho"
68 Charger R/T "Thor"
52 Willys M-38 "Poncho"

Offline 1974ramcharger

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Gender: Male
  • RCC Rules!
Re: VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen
« Reply #10 on: July 1, 2011, 07:48:26 PM »
Hi guy's I recently did this spring swap and man that fourth bolt was a huge pain in the neck you werent kidding I ended up loosening the fuel line that was in the way and using a T-handle allen wrench that I smacked on the top to make sure it was in and I did end up getting some runaway and the no start and did the adjust and got the start but running like crap still have to lower idle a little, but noticed a big change as far as power increase use to fall on it's face about 60m.p.h and now to 80 m.p.h and still feels like its pulling a great way to make power now to buy the stainless down pipe I see here on the site but need to buy 2  one for each truck the 91 power ram  and the 74 Ramcharger.
    Thanks for all the info and all your help,
1974ramcharger

Offline Mad Max

  • certified 'Imagineer'
  • Mopar Nut
  • ******
  • Posts: 9744
  • Gender: Male
  • USAF Retired
Re: VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen
« Reply #11 on: July 1, 2011, 10:18:07 PM »
good deal on the spring install - makes a great difference and wakes these older rigs right up {cool}

now to buy the stainless down pipe I see here on the site but need to buy 2  one for each truck the 91 power ram  and the 74 Ramcharger.
    Thanks for all the info and all your help,

I believe I can help you there  ;).  If you want two I'll knock off 10%.  Lemme know

- Sam
93 RC 'Cummins Sport' "Oxx"
93 Ram W350 CTD "Big Mack"
78 W-950 CTD Power Wagon "Nacho"
68 Charger R/T "Thor"
52 Willys M-38 "Poncho"

Offline 1974ramcharger

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Gender: Male
  • RCC Rules!
Re: VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen
« Reply #12 on: July 2, 2011, 01:54:10 PM »
Thanks Mad Max I'l let you know when I can buy the two pipes hopefully sooner than later.
1974ramcharger

Offline skyjackedRC

  • stud muffin!!!!!
  • RCC Rookie
  • **
  • Posts: 308
  • Gender: Male
  • i love chicken fried streak with gravy
Re: VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen
« Reply #13 on: September 3, 2011, 11:23:44 AM »
ok, i did this mod while having my pump off( in the middle of a swap) went to start the truck for the first time,no start, and noticed that the manual shut off is stuck(wont move), have taken it off and on about 8 times, and nothen...works fine with it off but no workie with it tighten down.
this aint my first  rodeo

Offline Mad Max

  • certified 'Imagineer'
  • Mopar Nut
  • ******
  • Posts: 9744
  • Gender: Male
  • USAF Retired
Re: VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen
« Reply #14 on: September 3, 2011, 12:46:08 PM »
...works fine with it off but no workie with it tighten down.

hmmm - can you explain the sentence above a bit more?  It'll start and run with the lever unbolted, but won't with it bolted on?  Not sure I'm following -

- Sam
93 RC 'Cummins Sport' "Oxx"
93 Ram W350 CTD "Big Mack"
78 W-950 CTD Power Wagon "Nacho"
68 Charger R/T "Thor"
52 Willys M-38 "Poncho"

Offline rob904x4

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 214
  • Gender: Male
Re: VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen
« Reply #15 on: September 3, 2011, 06:20:44 PM »
hmmm - can you explain the sentence above a bit more?  It'll start and run with the lever unbolted, but won't with it bolted on?  Not sure I'm following -  yeah what did you mean??

- Sam
p/s intercooler, hx35 turbo, denny t stag 2 fuel pin, pump turned in three turns ,gsk,three piece manifold,pensacola diesel injectores,2nd gen intake elbow,4" mandrel bent exhaust

Offline Mad Max

  • certified 'Imagineer'
  • Mopar Nut
  • ******
  • Posts: 9744
  • Gender: Male
  • USAF Retired
Re: VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen
« Reply #16 on: September 3, 2011, 08:42:08 PM »
my initial thought is either you have the throttle lever rotating the wrong direction under the throttle lever, or the indexing is maybe 180* off??  We'll git it fig'rd out but we needs more 'input'  :)
93 RC 'Cummins Sport' "Oxx"
93 Ram W350 CTD "Big Mack"
78 W-950 CTD Power Wagon "Nacho"
68 Charger R/T "Thor"
52 Willys M-38 "Poncho"

Offline skyjackedRC

  • stud muffin!!!!!
  • RCC Rookie
  • **
  • Posts: 308
  • Gender: Male
  • i love chicken fried streak with gravy
Re: VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen
« Reply #17 on: September 4, 2011, 11:20:10 PM »
figured it out today, when i resealed the pump, the fulcrum ball never seated in its lever, therefor why it seamed stuck with the afc housing bolted down. Pulled ip back off got her fixed and she fired right off.
this aint my first  rodeo

Offline Mad Max

  • certified 'Imagineer'
  • Mopar Nut
  • ******
  • Posts: 9744
  • Gender: Male
  • USAF Retired
Re: VE44 '366' spring installation - 1st gen
« Reply #18 on: September 6, 2011, 07:17:32 AM »
sweet {cool}
93 RC 'Cummins Sport' "Oxx"
93 Ram W350 CTD "Big Mack"
78 W-950 CTD Power Wagon "Nacho"
68 Charger R/T "Thor"
52 Willys M-38 "Poncho"