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flexplate keeps breaking

15K views 33 replies 10 participants last post by  mopar65pa 
#1 ·
truck is 92 W250 CTD, auto trans. 140K ish miles. my son's truck (he said he finally joined here, IDK  what username he picked) He bought 1-1/2 years ago with ~123K original miles and service records back to Day 1.
3rd owner,  owner#2 had it only 5 years, and kept in garage more than he drove it for the time that he had it, put about 20K on it during that time.
Owner 2 supposedly had trans redone, "marine" injectors and pump cranked 1 notch. IDK the exact true extent of mods.
Anyways my son had the truck ~4 months and  busted the flexplate around the hub. he uses as daily driver and rarely tows, but I have towed more with 1/2 ton 318 trucks than he has in the few times he has towed with it.  flex plates seem to last right around 5k miles. When the 1st one blew he sent the trans (only) to CRT transmissions for a "go-through",  they advertise in all the major Mopar magazines and such, he is only 40-ish miles from here. We put it back together and another 5K or so later (stock, parts store Pioneer brand used for replacement) 
2nd time; had it replaced at local diesel place, he's buddies with the family that owns the place,  he took the TC to a trans parts house and they rebuilt it, (non lockup, they had none in the pipeline on the shelf) and he used an SFI flexplate about 0.050" thicker than stock. Finding anything for non lockup is proving difficult, everyone says the 94-02 is supposed to fit these non L/U models.

A little history; when we originally did the 1st flexplate at home I noticed that the pads on the converter seemed too short, the flexplate wanted to bend towards the converter. He had bought a higher grade SFI plate originally, and wound up with the "stock replacement" because of the wanting to bend back towards the converter issue. so he has the 1st (higher) SFI plate here and the spacer plate that is supposed to be used with it due to its being thicker,  because  he had it too long for them to accept a return 
with the stock replacement, it bolted right up without wanting to flex upon tightening.

When the diesel place did it, and Nick (my son) bought the lower SFI plate for them to put in, figured "it's still stronger than stock" and with how he is (under) using the truck it should be fine.
At this point, they did find that the engine to trans adapter had a big crack in it so they did replace it with a (supposedly) good used piece.  5K miles later (almost exactly) it's making that noise once again.
I have certainly heard of checking bellhousing runout with a stick trans, but never with an auto
They did wind up putting a ~1/16" thick washer between the flexplate and the converter pads to deal with the flex plate wanting to bow towards the converter issue. It tightened right up at that point w/o wanting to pull.
Looking at the front face of the converter, it looks like a  3 ring target/bullseye,  and a "raised donut" looking protrusion for the middle "ring" of the bullseye/ and that seemed to be what the original SFI flexplate that he and I were going to install, was pulling against as we were tightening the bolts that hold the flexplate to the converter.  What gives here? including the original, this is the 3rd flexplate that he has blown! 

as a side note, being that this truck is an auto trans was the only thing that Nick had to complain about when he bought it and has talked about a stick conversion half jokingly when he brought it home but since this is now the 3rd busted flexplate he is wanting to dump the A/T more seriously now, I want him to SOLVE the issue before he adds any changes to the truck which potentially could add more issues trying to figure out just exactly why this is happening. I have never heard of a flexplate breaking on one of these trucks outside of the competition truck pulling arena.  What gives?
 
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#2 ·
pictures please ? converter should slide toward motor that last little bit . if the flex plate is on the crank correctly the converter center nub should fit into crank hole as required . if when you install there is this bending , stop , look why the converter is not fitting into crank . a thicker plate is not the answer to that problem . I suspect a p/o has had changes unreported in the records .
 
#3 ·
volaredon said:
everyone says the 94-02 is supposed to fit these non L/U models.
everyone says the 94-02 'what' is supposed to fit? If you use a 2nd gen converter you will also need everything else - tranny, adapter, converter, move the mounts back - all of it.

volaredon said:
A little history; when we originally did the 1st flexplate at home I noticed that the pads on the converter seemed too short, the flexplate wanted to bend towards the converter.
the flex plate definitely should not need to bend to capture the converter - the converter is supposed to slide forwards a bit to 'meet' the flex plate. Possibly there is an interference issue between the converter splines and the pump which is not allowing the converter to slide freely?

volaredon said:
..."and the spacer plate that is supposed to be used with it due to its being thicker..."
really need to know more about this - there should be no need for any spacers - something else is wrong

volaredon said:
At this point, they did find that the engine to trans adapter had a big crack in it so they did replace it with a (supposedly) good used piece.
are you certain they used the thinner 1st gen adapter vs the thicker 2nd gen unit?

- Sam
 
#4 ·
Thanks for he replies, I will try to answer them best I can;  not at all trying to be a smart ass or drive people away but so far a lot of "stating the obvious", things already known or looked at, hoping for something a little "deeper", if you guys get what I mean.

Madmax;  no not the  converter, I now you cannot use a L/U converter for a non L/U application,
it's the 94-02flexplate that everyone tells us is supposed to work on the older trucks. 

Yeah we know that the flexplate is not suppose to bend to mate up to the converter! That why I stopped and had the kid get a "stock repacement" flexplate instead of using the SFI one that he originally had bought.
the stock replacement did  not seem to want to bend.

and yes, the converter does slide freely about 3/16" when not bolted to the flexplate.
No binding on the splines.
The spacer plate that I mention, was listed on the website that the heavy duty SFI flexplate  came from as a necessary add on (came with longer dowel pins to compensate)  as due to that flexplate being double the thickness of stock, the company that made that particular flexplate said that this spacer was required to use with their flexplate to keep that sliding clearance that the converter has while not being bolted up/
he never did wind up using that flexplate and spacer due to the wanting to bend towards the converter as it was drawn up. as soon as I noticed that I STOPPED and started looking for "why", never did figure that part out but it was why we went with the parts store "stock" replacement instead.
the 2ntime it was replaced he went with an SFI that time but a lower rating than that original one that wanted the spacer plate.  I was not involved with the 2nd replacement, but do know that this was when they discovered the cracked adapter (and replaced it) and that to keep that flexplate from flexing towards the converter upon tightening, they put flat washers between the pads on the flexplate and the flexplate itself.

YES we know that "something is wrong here" Thanks for stating the obvious/ that is exactly why I posted this request for help, to try and figure out exactly what that something might be!!

as for pictures the kid will have to chime in as that's definitely "not me"!!!

i have been a mechanic for a living for many years "definitely not a rookie",  but am "light" on diesel experience. I have done lots of transmission R&R's, and more than a few overhauls and have never seen anything like the fitup issues that I am seeing here.

Even though he took it into the TRANSTAR warehouse who seemed to recognize it as the right converter for the application, and they wound up rebuilding the same converter and returning it to us, at the time it was mentioned that we thought that the pads that the flexplate bolts up to seemed too short, (maybe replaced in the previous rebuild when the last guy owned the truck) I do not think that they did anything with these when we had it rebuilt  Somehow I think that this may have something to do with it but do not have another converter sitting here to compare to.
 
#5 ·
no problem , well if you have lots of experience with gas trannies and converters , the only difference between them and a diesel is the rpm's and torque , everything else works the same way . Why do you say a 94-02 flexplate for a 92 truck ? the 3 speed trans in the 92 should be a 727/37rh , if there is no O.D. button on dash , where as the trans for the 94-02 should be a 47rh OD trans . your converter should be a large 11 inch low rpm stall for diesel engine speeds .    bad bushing in trans , or out of balance converter causing viberation ? I'd be curious as to what stopped the converter from sliding forward to meet the plate . Was it all the way forward into the crank and the plate is just the wrong one ? or does it not fit into the crank ?  the original one could have broken from age / use /torque but ....

you must also understand whats obvious to someone I don't know squat about ain't so obvious to me , how ta hell did I know you know ? ya know ? ya couldda been a dentist for all I knew !  LOL your hoping for the magic "Oh heck you gotta use a ford  plate"  sorry that IDK. 
 
#6 ·
82273, I do not know if this exact transmission is the  one that the truck left the factory with, but I do have to say that this truck definitely did NOT come from the factory with  a 3 speed trans!  It came with a 618/47RH. there definitely IS an OD button on the dash and it is factory OEM, stock equipment.

I say 94-02 flexplate for this 92 truck because that is what everyone in the parts industry is telling me that I have to use because the actual "right" one for a 92 is no longer available anywhere. and according to everyone that we have talked to  about fitment says that the one for a 94-02 is the correct replacement for our original. and we have been all over the place looking for one.
The PO had the transmission rebuilt and "built up" (I know, everyone's impression of "built up" is different )
Nick (my son and the current owner of this truck) also had it gone thru again even though it seemed "fine" right up until that 1st flexplate broke. As I said earlier he had a nationally well known Mopar only transmission place (CRT out of Indiana) do the rebuild. Being that the transmission was painted purple this guy knew exactly who had been inside the transmission before him, but would not tell who that might have been.
He THEN had the torque converter rebuilt the next time that the flexplate  blew, went to a major transmission warehouse distributor looking for a replacement converter but was told that there were not any non L/U to be had for a 92 anymore, they had to rebuild his. so he left it behind picked it up 2 days later, having been completely and fully rebuilt.  It has been 5000 miles since the converter rebuild and install of current failing flexplate.
and not quite 10K since the 1st one blew and the transmission was rebuilt.
As I said also before, the area of interference seems to me, to be the raised portion of the front face of the converter, the whole reason that he had it rebuilt, was because we wondered if it was in fact "balloned" but according to the rebuilder "eveything is fine" with it.  and that the raised portion is exactly how they were built.  I wish I had another one sitting here that I could compare side X side with it. but I don't.
 
#7 ·
dodge82273 said:
Why do you say a 94-02 flexplate for a 92 truck ? the 3 speed trans in the 92 should be a 727/37rh , if there is no O.D. button on dash , where as the trans for the 94-02 should be a 47rh OD trans . your converter should be a large 11 inch low rpm stall for diesel engine speeds . bad bushing in trans , or out of balance converter causing viberation ?

why would you think this is a 3 speed? It is a 4 speed OD but non lockup.

I'd be curious as to what stopped the converter from sliding forward to meet the plate . Was it all the way forward into the crank and the plate is just the wrong one ? or does it not fit into the crank ? the original one could have broken from age / use /torque but ....
As mentioned in my original post the front face of the converter is not flat. It has a raised portion about it, and the flexplate is hitting this and it is flexing between there and the mounting pads. The flexpate is hitting the face of the converter itself!
 
#8 ·
Could you explain how the flex plate is breaking, failure mode.  Also All Cummins powered  dodge trucks made after 91.5 to 2002 have the same flexpalte.

First thing I would recommend is make sure the transmission is centered to the crank.  If you broke a second adapter and flex plate then I would say the problem is the transmission case is not centered to the crank, if only takes it to be off a little to cause problems.  99% of the time it's never an issue but you might be dealing with the 1% case.  You should at least check it.

 
#9 ·
pretty sure ATS paints there stuff purple.

I agree with wilsonphil.  A centerline issue is 1st on the list. Should be locating dowels on the block side- I hope still there?
If I remember right, there is a 1 inch difference in depths between 89-93 adapters and 94-later adapters- I would check the casting number and dates on the adapter you have installed now- its not likely b/c starter would hit frame rail but worth a check
 
#10 ·
so the trans has 2 wire vertical plug that hooks to the coil for 4th ? OK it is a 518 , if the flex plate hits the front of the converter before its ears (bolt holes) hit the bolt tabs its either on the crank backwards , if that's even possible , or its the wrong plate . or the converter is damaged , pregnated . good luck with it .

 
 
#11 ·
the flexplate is breaking  out right around the circumference of the bolts that hold it to the crank.
That I know of it has broken 1 adapter not 2.
82273; Would they NOT have caught the converter being "pregnated" when it was sent in for rebuild? That was the entire reason for having it sent off!!!!
Again, on the "wrong plate"issue; we have been  all over searching for the right one, not just the corner grocery store style parts store!
and yes I know the difference between the 518 and a 727....
YES, the locating dowels are there!
been thru 1 adapter, this is flex plate #3, every 5k miles just like oil changes.

as had been said before I have heard of dial indiating a stick bellhousing to a block, where the bell can be separated from the trasmission,  but would not know how to do so on an auto where the bellhousing is integral with the case.
 
#12 ·
look dude , iffin yer so damed mechanical , you tell me how the bellhousing adapter has anything to do with the flex plate hitting the converter's face before it hits the bolt pads ? If that happened like you say it did , and caused the flex plate to have to bend back to the bolt pads , that can be seen with just the converter bolted to the motor , never mind a transmission , or bellhousing adapter or dowels . Flex plates I've seen are NOT flat , and how would I know what your trans place "would see" or not see ? !!!!!!! shit man I'm tryin to help , quit giving me shit about your problem huh ! ?
 
#13 ·
to the OP - if you could post up some pics then maybe we can get a better understanding of what's off.  Obviously something isn't right, and we're trying to help, but apparently us just talking about it isn't helping you any.
 
#14 ·
dodge82273 said:
look dude , iffin yer so damed mechanical , you tell me how the bellhousing adapter has anything to do with the flex plate hitting the converter's face before it hits the bolt pads ? If that happened like you say it did , and caused the flex plate to have to bend back to the bolt pads , that can be seen with just the converter bolted to the motor , never mind a transmission , or bellhousing adapter or dowels . Flex plates I've seen are NOT flat , and how would I know what your trans place "would see" or not see ? !!!!!!! shit man I'm tryin to help , quit giving me shit about your problem huh ! ?
Easy there.. not at all trying to "give anybody shit"... and yeah I did see the flexplate try to bend as I snugged the bolts down so I STOPPED! and we went with a different flexplate that did not appear to do that. but it still broke. so the kid took it to a friend's diesel shop and they put the 2nd one in, and had the same problem that we saw upon the 1st replacement and they wound up putting washers between the flexplatean theconverter AFTER that converter was taken in and factory rebuilt and proclaimed "fine".
they are the ones that caught the cracked adapter and thought (maybe) that MIGHT have caused something to go together off center andcae dte cracking problem,/ it needed to be replaced anyways due to the crack,

we were hoping tat maybe taht would solve the issue. but obviously there is more to i than that. and Im trying to figure out "what". I will have to ask the kid if he took any pix, I think we still have the original, busted plate here. Myself I am thinking that there is a PROBLEM with the converter, as I said earlier I wish I had a "known good" one here to compare but I do not. I only wanted input from the masses thinking that somehow somewhere somebody else MIGHT have had the same issue as we are.
I guess we're gonna have to come up with another converter and do from there. if only for comparison sake, bt hoefully to swap in and MAYBEsolve the issue once and for all
 
#15 ·
well ok , lets think this over .    all you need to check the flex plate and converter space deal is what ? a bare crank, a plate , and a converter .  Bolt the plate to the crank then try to bolt the converter to the plate ,  the engine , adapter , and trans has zip to do with that right ? so either  1 the plate is bolted to the crank backwards if that is even possible , 2 the converter is bad , 3 its the wrong plate .  4 they are the wrong bolts from plate to crank ( heads too tall ) . ( na ...)


what caused the adapter on the engine to break in the first place ? is the trans main shaft inline with the crank ? is the bellhouseing flush against the adapter, adapter flush against the engine , or bent/cocked causing a line bore type difference ( not run out but , are the shafts in line with each other ?) did the trans front bushing get wiped out ?

I can picture the fracture of the plate . that does sound like outta line shafts , that would cause a high / low stress on every revolution ... work hardening and cracking the plate , thicker will NOT stop that . 

the more ya think about it I'm guessing the adapter is either warped or not flush against the motor
a dial indicater from adapter surface where it mates to trans - TO the crank flange to measure depth taken at several points  . then try a new good flex plate bolted to crank , measure from the mate surface of adapter  to the 4 bolt ears where the converter goes , moving the indicater from driver side to pass side of adapter . a height/depth difference there  would mean a warped or not flush to motor adapter .
 
#16 ·
I've always found that if a flex plate cracks, (and you've had 3) it's usually because there is some sort of misalignment between the crank centerline and transmission centerline. The usual culprits can range from missing or distorted dowels or even pinching a wire between the engine and transmission when bolting the two together. So long as a misalignment exists, you'll break one flex plate after another.

One thing that stands out in this conversation is the damaged adapter you replaced. It shouldn't have cracked in the first place, which leads me to think that the trans was removed and reinstalled incorrectly, by a previous owner, or the transmission shop which rebuilt the unit. If this is the case, the trans might have sustained some other damage, such as a slightly bent input shaft.

The bad part of this is, it's looking more and more like you're either going to have to have everything torn apart and reinspected or swap out transmissions.



Ed
 
#17 ·
On the "why the adapter broke"  I did not see the adapter, that was discvered when my son had his buddies replace it (flexplate #2) at the diesel shop.  On the original flexplate replacement, which I did help on, we saw scrape marks and gouges from the backs of the flexplate to converter bolts, as when it was letting go/ but not yet broke, the heads of those bolts and the torn metal of the flexplate  were able to rub against the adapter, but when I looked at it that time, I saw the fresh scrape marks but saw no crack. Could I have missed it? maybe, can't say for sure now as those parts have long since been scrapped. but the crack was discovered upon that 2nd replacement. I guess it was cracked either thru the middle of or else right where the scrape marks ended, can't remember now what was said/ but thinking at the time was that maybe the cracked adapter was the cause of a misalignment issue and we had hoped that this was the cause and solution.
but I guess it was another effect just like the flexplates have been.

I just did a trans 2 weeks ago on a 4X4 Dakota, and just rebuilt one that will go into my 2wd 92 Dakota either this weekend or next. Both gas motors. Done my share of those. but the truck that is subject of this thread was the 1st non L/U version and 2nd trans R&R  I have ever done on a CTD equipped truck. (other one was a 2005) Had I done more diesel ones and had seen more diesel converters I could tell if something looked weird about the face of it. but being that I have not, I have no knowledge base to compare to.
Yes I know and completely understand that it will have to come apart again. I can deal with that. But the whole point of posting here is to figure out what else  to look at, besides what has been checked already, to finally put an end to this aggravation.  How would an input shaft on a trans get bent? I would sure have expected the guys at the trans shop to have caught that when they had it apart after the 1st one broke. At the time it was chalked up to fatigue from sheer age. but we know better now.

I do know that when #2 broke, the flexplate was bolted to the crank and the converter set up there without the rest of the trans and the converter AND flexplate were taken to the trans warehouse/parts place/rebuilder and looked at by many and there are quite a few scratching their heads over this one.
 
#18 ·
I agree with rtx , he has reworded my statement , the shaft of the trans and the crank are NOT in line with each other , think line bore of mains on an engine block .  you are facing 2 problems , possibly . flex plate /converter AND the 2 shafts aren't in line with one another .

the non lock 518 is just a 727 with an add on 4th gear section , main section , same trans .  diesel uses a different governor ( lower rpm) and more clutch plates . the converter in a diesel is 11 inch an inch larger  (?) and a lower stall speed than a gas motor  .

you need to buy the right flex plate , then use a dial indicator to check that the adapter trans face surface is parallel to the cranks flange . then check to see that its centered with the cranks center . I'm thinking that the adapter is warped ( cast iron ?) or like rtx said not bolted flush to motor ... so the 2 shafts are doing \| not ||
      its NOT something simple stoopid like a starter issue , bendix out and riding the gear on the converter? you would have heard that , and the starter would have tossed its cookies , maybe even breaking the adapter in the process . 
 
#19 ·
no it isn't anything with the starter.  just gonna have to wait til we can get it all pulled back apart and se what we can see. I still think there is something wrong with the converter itself. 
Without being able to separate the trans and bell, I don't see how I'd be able to dial indicate the trans to the engine.  We have tried and tried and TRIED to get the right flexplate.  haven't looked since I started this thread, gotta wait til I get some other things done in the garage to be able to get it back in can't do anything but talk about things (which sure don't fix the issue I know) until then.
Thanks for the help in figuring this mess out.
 
#20 ·
volaredon said:
How would an input shaft on a trans get bent?
Well, it could be incorrect removal. Maybe someone unbolted the transmission, but left the converter bolted to the flex plate and slid the transmission off (This puts all the weight of the trans and t-case hanging on the input shaft)
Someone might have tried to install the transmission the same way, by sliding the trans (with the tc already bolted to the flex plate) onto the input shaft which sometimes causes a bind when the unit is bolted on.

The input shaft could also have been bent or twisted by abuse. These engines can be capable of tremendous torque (92s were capable of at least 400ft-lb which is about what a big block can produce). And it won't take much to create problems

I would sure have expected the guys at the trans shop to have caught that when they had it apart after the 1st one broke. At the time it was chalked up to fatigue from sheer age. but we know better now.
Well they are only human and they can miss things. After all, they are apparently still missing the reason why flex plate #2 and #3 broke, right?

At this point I'm still inclined to think there is a misalignment. A bent or twisted shaft could contribute to a misalignment issue, but so can several other things. According to some info I found on this subject, all it takes is a misalignment of .006" to cause a flex plates to fail. Without measuring the run out of everything and looking for the source of any misalignment, the problem will continue.

Ed
 
#21 ·
there IS an adapter that bolts to the back of a b series engine , go from the face of That (where it mates to the trans ), to the crank flange. You want to see if that adapter is bolted flush to the engine , and if it is warped .

You have 2 problems NOT one .    a missaglinement that breaks the plate , |
                                                                                                            \
    and if fixing that don't solve the converter don't come forward to the plate bolt holes  , then a bad converter,wrong flex plate,improperly installed flex plate(flipped over on crank , if that's even possible )
 
#22 ·
OK/ I know that some of you have "skipped thru" my posts here because I have had to repeat some of the info in the 1st one I started with here but an update; looks like we might be to the bottom of this mess; I suspected a converter issue from the get go, and now that it's apart for the 3rd time I did some digging and found a 2wd, '93 Cummins trans and converter available on CL and I see that the front of its converter  looks way different than what we have.  The converter in there now is the exact one that was in the truck when my son bought it, and I questioned it the 1st time it was apart but with nothing to compare it to, what could we do?
1st flexplate breakage; he took the trans in for a bench rebuild, with the converter and had the same converter handed back to him, so it went back in.  upon 2nd one, the converter was taken in to a major tranny parts warehouse for a hopeful exchange, but they had none in any of their warehouses (they had tons of lockup versions!) so they had to rebuild and return the same converter. 
Well Nick (my son/truck's owner) went to 2 local trans shops looking for a different converter and the 1st one he went to said "that's a V10 converter NOT a diesel one" Wow. But it seems that the non L/U converters are made of non obtanium.  it seems nobody has one on the shelf. 
so, after finding a converter catalog online, it seems by the pix that the local trans guy is right...
looks like the one we have is 1 number off (relating to the part number listed) to the one that should be in there.
 
#23 ·
#25 ·
For what it's worth...If you have the trans apart, you can bolt it in place (correctly with all the proper bolts, dowels & torqued).  With a dial indicator bolted to the crank, you can do a run out on the front pump bore real easy.  The front pump face is a little more tricky with all the oil passages, but you can set up to do the face run-out also.  This will let you know if the engine, adapter, & trans alignment is correct.
The input shaft should be easy to check run out.  V-blocks or chucked into a lathe & turn by hand under the dial indicator. 
 
#26 ·
well the trans was apart 2 flexplates ago as described many posts ago.... bench rebuild.
and wilson; yes I know that is the brand that Autozone carries; and the brand that the Transtar warehouse handled and could not lay their hands on for this application;  the ONLY TC that Dacco lists for this app is a #590; which is what the one that has been in the truck since before my son owned it  and Transtar rebuilt upon bad flexplate #2... 5K miles ago back in Sept of '16.
This is the ONLY non lockup converter listed for a Dodge Cummins by Dacco for the years 89-93 which includes 3 speed 727s and 4 speed 518s/618s/46RH?47RH.
I was looking around on CL a few days ago and see where there is a converter and trans for a 93 2wd about 80 miles away;  was thinking of going for a ride just to compare what we have to taht one;
I wound up finding a fresh in the box, converter for this application about 150 miles away, fresh reman that has not been run since, still in the Dacco box. The guy met me part way (I went 2/3 of the way to him, we met @ a gas station along the road)
I bought that TC and brought it home and SOB; setting this SFI flexplate on it that Nick bought and wanted to use initially but is now a paperweight because he had it too long for returns to be accepted,  I set that flexplate on this 2nd converter that says right on the box taht this is what it is supposed to fit and it too sits on that raised surface of the TC with about 3/32" gap between the flexplate and the threaded pads meaning that it too woukd flex and bend toward the converter if we were to try and bolt it up; the flexplate says (I forget actual tooth count) but something like 132T Cummins etched right into the plate itself;
I waht to call BS on those that claim that  the same flexplate fits 89-02/ because from what I am seeing that is NOT the case...... so again the truck sits with trans and transfer case out while I investigate what is wrong with this picture....
 
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