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Topic: diesel newby tech needed  (Read 1047 times)
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« on: February 10, 2010, 12:58:37 PM »

Never posted on this side of the board before so forgive my ignorance please.  I'm trying to determine what cummins 6 cylinder is the most desirable and why, and why would a 90 model cummins be less desirable? I've searched and read but am having a hard time compiling all the data to my question: What are the differences btw the 1st gen 2nd gen and 3rd gen cummins in our rams.  I know that in 98.5 they went to 24V, some of the earlier ones have IC's, turbos are all over the board, stock power output continues to climb, and it seems that any of these blocks can produce tons of power for little investment fuel screws and whatnot.  

My main objective with this post is do get an idea if I should buy and swap in a low miles 90 model 6 cylinder cummins into my 85 ramcharger in place of my 440.  I have found what I think may be a good deal and need to act fast, but have tons of questions... What sort of power should I expect from the stock cummins, and is this an intercooled motor or not?  Pretty much I want to know what is the best iteration of the cummins to swap in and what are the pros and cons of each version.  For instance is is desirable to have a non IC motor, are the early 12V considered weaker and require more investment to generate power.   I'm hoping to get to 300hp and 500 lbs/ft of torque and would like to know how much money I'd be looking at down the road.  I have tons of questions and hope to answer them by reading this forum, but need to make a decision on weather I should by this low miles cummins donor truck or not and need to act fast?  

Thanks for the help

Dave
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« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2010, 01:12:17 PM »

In my limited knowledge I will say a 1st gen I/C 6bt is the most wanted motor.

BUT there are other that will disagree.  Grin

I don't like the elec controlled motors, and I think the 24V chatter too much.  Grin

For me simpler is better.  Tongue

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« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2010, 01:14:25 PM »

89-91, non intercooled VE44 12v
91.5-93 intercooled VE44 12v
94-98 P7100 12v
98.5-02 VP44 24v
03-07 5.9L "CRD" CP-3
07.5- 6.7L CRD CP-3

The intercooler came on all 91.5-up, because it is an emission device. Not a power adder at that power level (early 12v) does reduce smoke. Definitely becomes a factor at higher power levels.

I don't think there is such a thing as "best", each having their own merits. I like P7100 motors, but they are louder, have slightly less mpg, BUT just as (if not more) simple than any earlier truck, have a very robust pump, and enjoy large aftermarket support.

I'll let someone else chime in on non-ic engines, they are a bit different. Have 9mm injector threads which supposedly crack more, but who knows? I think some of their fueling parts are actually bigger than newer engines.

I'd take most any 12v for a good price. Good price being under $2000 for the average 4x4 donor. Maybe $2500 depending on if the body has any usable parts.
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« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2010, 04:56:29 PM »

I'm at work, so I'll make it short.

I have a 90' Cummin's Non-IC. I couldn't ask for a more "powerful" truck, and even with about 250,000 on the clock, it's got more get up and go than any small block I've ever driven, and is quite often "quicker" than a lot of newer trucks. I prefer driving my Cummins over my 2004 Ram.

Tweak your pump ("free" power)
Invest in Guages (EGT, Boost, and Fuel Pressure is a good one to have)
Have Fun!

One downside: if it's an auto, it will be a 727 trans. The Cummins could really use the OD of a A518.
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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2010, 05:16:07 PM »



One downside: if it's an auto, it will be a 727 trans. The Cummins could really use the OD of a A518.

I have a 727 and have had no problems with it but it's rebuilt by Jasper.  Wink

You are right though I could use another gear on the highway.  Grin

Mine is a NON I/C too and runs great,. I pull 7K on a regular basis with no trouble.  Wink

I do need a cross-flow rad though, it tends to get up to 210* pulling hills with 7K very quickly.  Undecided
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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2010, 05:42:46 PM »

I do need a cross-flow rad though, it tends to get up to 210* pulling hills with 7K very quickly.  Undecided


I sent a fan through my stocker, and I went ahead and replaced it with an aluminum one from Summit Racing. Check out McCullogh Fabricating http://www.alumrad.com I had some parts for my radiator sent from them, and they were GREAT to work with.

Bought my T-stat housing that sends the hose to the drivers side from Cummins NW. All in all it was about $500 (my shipping is a little rediculous, being in Alaska) kept the stock fan, tried going with an Electric fan, but I didn't have enough room without messing with the core support.
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NOW---> 1990 W350, Cummins, A518/205 D60, D60, 35"x12.5"

1990 W250 CTD, 727,60f, 70r, 4" Skyjacker lift, 35" BFG A/T, tweak'd pump, BHAF, with LOTS of work to do
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« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2010, 05:46:08 PM »

I sent a fan through my stocker, and I went ahead and replaced it with an aluminum one from Summit Racing. Check out McCullogh Fabricating http://www.alumrad.com I had some parts for my radiator sent from them, and they were GREAT to work with.

Bought my T-stat housing that sends the hose to the drivers side from Cummins NW. All in all it was about $500 (my shipping is a little rediculous, being in Alaska) kept the stock fan, tried going with an Electric fan, but I didn't have enough room without messing with the core support.


I can get a stock rad for an I/C truck for $300+tax here local.  Wink

I just need the water neck.  Grin

That will be coming this spring money is the problem right now being out of work.  Undecided
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« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2010, 07:47:47 PM »

If I were doing a 1st Gen engine swap I wouldn't hesitate to go with the Non I/C engine but I would buy a 2nd Gen I/C and put that in as well.  The 89-91.5' engines have injectors that flow nearly 20% more fuel than the later 91.5-93' 1st Gens.  The radiator and lack of automatic OD transmission is the downfall.  The head design was improved in 91.5' but that doesn't mean all pre 91.5's heads should be condemned.  My 89' has over 300k and still running strong, if it cracks too bad to use I would find another rather than go with an improved one.  Not a big issue IMO.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 08:28:56 PM by sdstriper » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2010, 07:50:32 PM »

I do need a cross-flow rad though, it tends to get up to 210* pulling hills with 7K very quickly.  Undecided

Weren't you running turned up pump and no air mods?
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« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2010, 08:10:37 PM »

Weren't you running turned up pump and no air mods?

I'm not sure yet Joe I have no clue what the PO did to it. I'm pretty sure the pump timing was changed, as far as the pump I'll find out when we take it off to do the reseal.  Undecided

And no I don;t have any air mods accept for the K&N the kid put on it.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2010, 08:32:38 PM »

I have a 727 and have had no problems with it but it's rebuilt by Jasper.  Wink

You are right though I could use another gear on the highway.  Grin

Mine is a NON I/C too and runs great,. I pull 7K on a regular basis with no trouble.  Wink

I do need a cross-flow rad though, it tends to get up to 210* pulling hills with 7K very quickly.  Undecided

This is typical of my truck as well.

The trans. fluid heats up the radiator coolant thru the heat exchanger on the early 1st Gen, the down flow was a problem.  Couple that with running high rpm on the freeway towing a load and you'll get hot.  You have gauges?
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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2010, 09:09:24 PM »

 You have gauges?

Mechanical temp gauge that's it. I haven't gotten to the point of putting in a EGT gauge yet.
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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2010, 09:25:53 PM »

I would put a trans. temp guage and EGT on there.
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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2010, 09:33:30 PM »

I would put a trans. temp guage and EGT on there.

I have a second trans cooler on it.  Wink

I'm going to reseal the IP next week since it's leaking and we'll know where the pump was set at. It blows black smoke even at 60MPH when you stomp it down.  Undecided I'm thinking the guy cranked the fuel screw in the whole way.  No clue
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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2010, 09:40:29 PM »

I have a second trans cooler on it.  Wink

I'm going to reseal the IP next week since it's leaking and we'll know where the pump was set at. It blows black smoke even at 60MPH when you stomp it down.  Undecided I'm thinking the guy cranked the fuel screw in the whole way.  No clue

The early ones have the fueling to black out the sun even at highway speeds, not surprising...
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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2010, 09:41:39 PM »

If you do find yourself getting warm, pull over and keep truck in neutral high idle, about 1000rpm maybe a little more, pop the hood open. Within 5 minutes you will drop major temp unless something has failed. Make sure not to shut engine off though. I blew a radiator in half that way. (end tank ripped clean off)

Hit about 204 once, the engine had basically been running for about 18hours down the highway at that point, 6000ish pounds, through the ozarks. 95* outside, air conditioning been running the whole time.

Now you can see why overdrive may be of assistance. And mad max's air intake.  Wink
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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2010, 09:59:21 PM »

On ultra hot days towing heavy I would pull off and before I would come to a stop it cooled instantly.  My solution was to drive 1989 speed limits... It sucked but what the heck, you know.  This was towing close to 10K, 100 degrees at 80 mph.  I never had temp troubles except that one week I was travelling alot loaded down.
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« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2010, 10:09:27 PM »

I back off when I need to, like as it gets up around 195-200*. Once on the flat it cools quickly. SO I'm figuring it a fuel issue on top of the down flow rad.  No clue

Pulling down the highway at 60-65 it runs at 185-190* on a hot day.

But even in 30* temps it will still jump up to 200* pulling a hill.
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« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2010, 11:10:55 PM »

This is great... lots of good info here and fast too, keep it coming. 

If it helps, I plan to put this in my rock crawl truck... (the 85 RC in my way outdated sig)  I'm currently running a 727 behind the big block that I just got done installing actaully.  The donor truck is a 2wd so I imagine the bell housing is different on the trans and I'll have to do the 4wd tail shaft swap again Roll Eyes.  Otherwise I probably won't be towing with this rig, but I will be doing alot of slow speed crawling, steep inclines ect, with occasional blast of wot burps to make it up and over the loose stuff.  I'm debating the whole idea since the 440 is strong and torque, revs higher, and probably revs quicker than a diesel, but the carb certainly is its major drawback on the steep stuff.  The diesel would on the other hand have more low end torque, and will run at any angle as long as oil pressure is maintained.  I imagine the diesel is heavier than the 440 which is bad, but the difference can't be more than a coupe hundred pounds I wouldn't think.  How would the hear issue be in the high load, low speed crawling scenarios??

Thanks again
Dave
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« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2010, 11:19:25 PM »

What I have read and heard IIRC the 6bt weighs in at 1200lbs. A 440 weighs in at around 600-700

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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2010, 11:30:01 PM »

The lack of compression braking will be real hairy without some torque converter upgrade, and even then, not nearly as much as any gas engine.
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« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2010, 10:27:25 AM »

This is great... lots of good info here and fast too, keep it coming.  

If it helps, I plan to put this in my rock crawl truck... (the 85 RC in my way outdated sig)  I'm currently running a 727 behind the big block that I just got done installing actaully.  The donor truck is a 2wd so I imagine the bell housing is different on the trans and I'll have to do the 4wd tail shaft swap again Roll Eyes.  Otherwise I probably won't be towing with this rig, but I will be doing alot of slow speed crawling, steep inclines ect, with occasional blast of wot burps to make it up and over the loose stuff.  I'm debating the whole idea since the 440 is strong and torque, revs higher, and probably revs quicker than a diesel, but the carb certainly is its major drawback on the steep stuff.  The diesel would on the other hand have more low end torque, and will run at any angle as long as oil pressure is maintained.  I imagine the diesel is heavier than the 440 which is bad, but the difference can't be more than a coupe hundred pounds I wouldn't think.  How would the hear issue be in the high load, low speed crawling scenarios??

Thanks again
Dave


Hey Dave, great project you have going on.  Not sure if you've seen my thread on 'Nacho', but the diesel swap I did to that 78 RC sounds a lot like what you are planning.  The diesel swap made the truck feel night and day better than the 440 that was in there, and even though the truck was pretty hefty (just over 7000 lbs) it was extremely sure-footed.  In the end Nacho had 36" tires, 3.54 gears, a '93 6bt/518, a 203/205 doubler.  It was fantastic.  The Cummins revs up and down faster than a gasser because it's 17.5-to-1 compression, and like you said it will 'run' upside down or any angle.

Weight is certainly heavier on the diesel, but the torque gained seems to make up for it nicely.  I would suggest some fat tires - not necessarily tall, but the Mickey Thompson 36x15.5's are a great sized tire under that kind of weight, especially up front.  The weight is managable but you need the right hardware in the right places, and lockers, especially up front, will definitely make 'wheeling a lot more managable.  

Also, you won't 'need' any power upgrades at all to have big fun wheeling.  You could leave the engine stock and spend the $ on chassis upgrades. 

If yer looking for some vids of a diesel RC build for wheelin' I'd offer ya to have a gander at a couple of the vids of my old trail rig 'Nacho', a couple years ago at Moab - you can almost 'feel' the torque Cool.  Remember this was with 3.54 gears and a doubler (4-1 final ratio).

reply # 2131: http://ramchargercentral.com/index.php/topic,49434.2100.html

The rig I have in progress 'Bud' will have 4.56 gears and the same doubler - that build in over in the 'trucks' section.  Might also glean some ideas.  Any questions ask away  Smiley

- Sam

« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 10:34:29 AM by Mad Max » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2010, 12:38:46 PM »

I remember this build and loosely followed it as I could never find the time to keep up with it, maybe I should print it off and have a nacho reference manual(s).  All good info thanks guys, I sure hope this deal goes through or else I'll be looking for a cummins anyway.  I think I have commitment issues because I just got the 440 in the truck a few months ago...

Sam, one thing does concern me: when you say "old trail rig" what does that mean?  maybe I should read the the end of the build thread to find out, but is it dare I say... gone?

Dave
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97 ram built tranny w/ transgo, dana 70 rear, hughes cam and heavy duty heads
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« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2010, 01:02:09 PM »

yah the last couple thread pages sum up the next 'evolution' of El Nacho, and the generation of the new project rig, Bud.  It's all been good fun Wink

And regarding committment issues, the 440 I replaced was only between the fenders for about 6 months, and once the diesel got in there I never looked back.  Mechanical direct injection, stable reliable cooling, and mountains of pure smooth torque make for my ideal trail rig power plant.  You won't need a lot of power, and one thing the 6bt's enjoy more than the 4bt's is the availability of aftermarket parts.....and stock parts for that matter.  Not a lot of 4bt's around...
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« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2010, 03:45:23 PM »

personally I love my 97 12v. I would go with a p7100 motor. as said you can do just about anything you want to them. the aftermarket world seams to support them quit a bit. plus I have over drive and with my truck being a 97 it came with a dana 60/70 combo with 4.11 and a rear limited slip. Honestly wish it had come with 3.55 or so because even with the 35's I have on the truck I want more. LOL

Scott
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check out your local chapter board.

Going cheap on the build is like going to prom with out protection, you can do it you just might regret it later.
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